Happy New Year

How about resolving to end all war?

Compare the Iraqi death total under Sadam and under U.S. presence. I believe he killed far more of them than have been killed amongst themselves and by terrorists since--or by us.

Compare the death of our troops in this war to the number killed in other wars --and to the number of young people killed by violence, drugs, suicides and auto accidents since 9/11 in the u.s.

Compare the death total to the numbers of infants aborted annually.

We aren't in Iraq to make trouble but to help them have a humane and democratic gov't for the first time ever. Under Sadam, that nation DID have scientists assigned to develop nuclear bomb capability and other WMD --regardless of the lack of weapons found --some WERE found, contrary to our media reports.

We ought not leave now and let a "free Iraq" fall to civil war and outside terrorist forces. We went there to be helpful to people who wanted us in there earlier --who had died by the MANY THOUSANDS at the hands of a dictator who had sworn enmity to us, who would have followed through and joined Osama --you can bet Sadam rejoiced at the destruction in America --3000 in one morning! It's taken a few years to lose that many troops in Iraq in the struggle for their nation. We can't afford to ignore a nation whose ideology, leadership, sworn enmity to us, would've inclined that nation to support Osama and his tactics -to emulate his tactics.

My nephew, a college grad, is there in the Army and says many Iraqis appreciate them and he feels good about his mission there --that they are helping to ferret out and rid the nation of terrorists --that they have helped with schools, hospitals and infrastructure. he tells about a farmer who either did or wants to donate his farm, camels and sheep and all, for a U.S. military base.

Barb,

If our goals in Iraq are so lofty, thn why did we invade Iraq, and not North Korea, whose population is far more oppressed and who actually has WMDs? Or Iran, where there is maybe not as much oppression, but a much more advanced WMD program? Or why didn't we invade China to stop human rights abuses there, particularly in Tibet?

If we're so concerned with stopping terrorism, then why didn't we focus on first winning the war in Afganistan, where the Taliban is still going strong, or why didn't we focus on the Israel/Palestine quagmire, which until Iraq was arguably the primary motivator for anti-Western sentiment in the Arab world? Why did we respond to 9/11 by invading a county that had no involvement in that attack or others against us?

Why are we surprised the Iran is now asserting itself throughout the Middle East and destablizing our presence there after we picked off two of their major regional rivals (Sadaam and the Taliban)?

Why now, as we talk about creating a time table to pull out while handing control to the Iraqis, do some conservatives insist that everything will collapse without a US presence? It was horribly arrogant to assume we could just waltz in and create a stable democracy. Its the same arrogance to assume that our troops are the only ones that can save Iraq from itself.

The war was a mistake. Every reason I've ever heard for it (both before and after the invasion, as the purported reasons for it change every few months) is based on misinformation, lies, or logical failings. Every thing we've done since the invasion demonstrates the utter incompetance of those planning and executing the war.

Let's gather our minds together, and try and find a way out of this mess, and most importantly: lets remember how we got ourselves into it and not let it happen again.

Barb,

Where to start. Compare the death toll in Iraq? I have. There were no doubt many Iraqi civilians who died in Iraq under Saddam’s 24 year reign, and conservatives like to inflate the number of killed by pointing to the number of Iraqi’s killed in Iraq’s “needless” eight year war with Iran. Then again, the US was supporting Saddam in that endeavor (the enemy of my enemy is my friend) so to lay blame on Saddam for these deaths is dubious. Then there were the sanctions following the first gulf war, where figures show over 500,000 children, children, died as a result of US led sanctions. Conservatives also blame Saddam for these deaths, arguing that he was responsible for the sanctions. In any case, the most vocal supporters of the US invasion of Iraq claim that Saddam was responsible for between 70 and 125 civilian deaths a day.

Since September of 2006, there have been over 12,320 civilians reported killed in Iraq. If you do the math, that is over 100 per day. And those are just the ones reported. While the total number of Iraqi’s killed during this US led war will never be known, many respected sources list the number killed as high as 600,000. You are either unaware of the significant toll this war has taken, or are being intellectually dishonest by comparing a twenty four year reign with four years of war. Either way, to say that ‘Saddam was way worse’ is patently false.

And deaths of US troops? It sickens me to hear you minimize the lives lost in Iraq by offering a comparison on volume. I know families who have lost loved ones in the conflict, and their grief is every bit as real as the tens of thousands killed in other wars. In sheer numbers, the toll on the US may currently be low, but the rates mirror the 56,000 killed in Vietnam over time.

And spare me the talk of “humane and democratic” government. I suppose the lynching of Saddam shows the “humane” government for what it really is. The ‘democracy’ that many in Iraq advocate is a militant theocracy, not that dissimilar from Iran, and it is nice to see that the United States was able to give that to the people of Iraq. Call it the ‘gift that keeps giving’ as future US administrations will no doubt cite the threat from a ‘democratic’ Iraq as justification for war, sanctions, or continued occupation. While you may describe our actions in Iraq as having lofty goals, the reality is that you cannot impose democracy on others under the barrel of a gun. There is nothing for us to be proud of in Iraq, where living conditions are far worse (try getting clean water and basic food) than under Saddam. The only people happy with the way things are in Iraq are the US contractors who are making a mint, and the capitalists who see Iraq as a new market for goods if it is ever pacified.

WMD? I have spent a considerable amount of time tracking the ‘bomb making capacity’ of Iraq that you refer to. I have read countless reports from the IAEA, military assessments of Iraq’s claimed military capacity, as well as the statements of various presidents and key members of their administrations on Iraq’s capability dating back to 1990 in official presidential papers. To say that they found WMD in Iraq in false, especially when those weapons were destroyed over a decade ago.

You also seem to have been misled about nuclear weapons. Conservatives like to say that ‘Saddam had scientists assigned to develop nuclear weapons’, but they ignore the fact that most of these scientists were employed before 1990. If scientists being assigned to develop nuclear weapons gives rise to a justification for an attack on another country, why are we not attacking India, Pakistan, Israel, Russia, and every other country that has scientists working on nuclear weapon technology. Didn’t we just sign a trade agreement with India, transferring nuclear technology and fuel to India, which allows India to make more nuclear bombs?

And if ‘scientists working on developing nuclear weapons’ is so offensive, I hate to think how offensive our own research and development of nuclear weapons must be to the rest of the world! Think of the number of scientists in the United States who are working to develop nuclear weapons. (Like the larger bunker buster variety, or the smaller variety in the size of a suitcase that the US is currently working on in an apparent attempt to make them more useable in battle.)

You are profoundly mistaken about the conflicts we face in the middle east when you say ‘Saddam would have followed through and joined Osama.’ You may recall that Saddam was a secular leader, and Iraq was one of the most secular countries in the middle east. Osama, on the other hand, advocates a theocratic government. The government Osama advocates is far closer to the government of Iran, the very country Saddam fought an eight year war with. Moreover, Saddam’s power depended upon keeping those that advocated a theocratic government, the Shia majority, under control, which is why the Shia in Iraq were so violently oppressed. If Saddam was concerned about one thing, it was holding onto power for himself- he even refused to step down in March of 2003 to avoid a US invasion. For you to suggest that Saddam would unite with a very real threat to his power in Iraq in order to ‘stick it to the US’ is illogical. Saddam posed a far greater long term threat to the US economy by pricing his oil in Euros instead of US dollars, something he did not need Osama for at all. (OPEC oil is priced in US dollars. Two countries have priced their oil in alternative currencies- Iraq formerly and Iran now (in Euros) and Venezuela. Hmmm. I see a pattern here.) Whether Saddam was cheering at the deaths of 3,000 Americans is no less or no more offensive than those here at home who cheer at the deaths of Iraqis, but cheering for death does not make one directly responsible for causing it.

Finally, you argue that we could not afford to let Saddam ‘emulate Osama’s tactics.’ As a secular statement, divorced from any religious teachings or thought, that statement may be persuasive to some. Unfortunately for me, it contradicts every religious teaching I know. The example I try to follow is that when your enemies are hungry, you feed them. When someone strikes you on the cheek, you turn the other cheek- you don’t strike them before they strike you.

This was a war of choice, not a war of necessity. I will do everything I can to end this war. I hope you do so as well, whatever your reasoning.

More proof of the effectiveness of the death penalty:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/06/world/middleeast/06arabs.html?hp&ex=1168146000&en=c2e8e35861a46754&ei=5094&partner=homepage

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