The Fall of Ted Haggard

No he's not singing a different tune. He never believed any of that to begin with. He was a consultant to Bush and Rove, and his job was to deliver the fundies' votes, and that's all he's ever been concerned with. He got paid well to do this and that's what he was in it for. Now, he will not be useful to Bushco and I don't feel sorry for him. He made a bad business move to jeopardize his usefulness but that happens to businessmen the world over everyday. If that's harsh or uncaring, I'm sorry, but these people have been destroying lives for money and power for the past decade. Their demise is to me no more an unhappy event than would be the eradication of aids.

Ted Haggard has 1460 news articles about him.

http://news.google.com/nwshp?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/nation/15924898.htm

Meanwhile notorious creationist Kent Hovind's conviction yesterday for tax fraud goes virtually unnoticed. Only 31 stories.

http://news.google.com/nwshp?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&tab=wn&q=hovind

More about Hovind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind

Can't I just have one private little gloating session over Ken Haggard? I wouldn't even want that if it weren't for the fact that Haggard has gone from denying he knew the man at all to saying he bought the drugs, but didn't use them and got a massage, but didn't engage in sex. Riiiight. And pigs may sprout wings and fly.

Imagine what a powerful voice Ken Haggard could have if he came out and became an advocate for full inclusion of LGBT folk in society and in the church. Lets not forget the early life of Paul, where he advocated and encourage the murder of Christians, but then went on to become one of the most influential figures in the history of Christianity.

For a more modern example, look at the example of Mel White, who used to be a ghost writer for Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, but then came out, founded SoulForce, and has devoted his life to the political and spiritual liberation of LGBT folk.

Clearly Haggard has a lot of forgiveness to ask for, but the more we gloat, the less likely he is to ever ask for it, and the less likely he is to bring anything positive out of this whole bruhaha.

I agree, John G. However, I think that his "Christianity" was all about gaining personal and political power anyway- the same as most fundamentalists and especially dominionists.

We can hope, and we can pray- it would be a fantastic thing if he DID repent. What a story for Christianity that would be!!!

I actually expect more stories like this to come out. Maybe not all "preaching hatred towards gays and actually one himself", but along the lines of Foley, Reed, and so on.

I expect it because of the nature of dominionism and the inherent hypocrisy of fundamentalism.

Personally, I think that God is taking a hand in the situation we face. We're fighting against forces that are based on judgmentalism, deceit, misinterpretations and misinformation, and downright hatred. Since Teyose was so concerned about the poor and hurting (and considering how the support for these people is being dismantled- since Reagan), I wouldn't be surprised.

If Rev. Hair Do, Ken Haggard, really would repent for his deception and ask forgiveness, I'm certainly in no position to deny it. However, I have much more sympathy and compassion for all the people he's hurt, both the gay folks he targeted in his witch hunt and the members of his church who trusted and believed in him.

Of course I know it's wrong to gloat, even a little bit over someone else's misfortune but Haggard's own self-righteous hypocricy brought him down.

So far the neither the fundies nor the trolls have had anything to say here about the downfall of one of their own. Mighty interesting.

You're right, Cathie. Although, saying so may draw their nonsense and hate mongering to this thread. The curse of having an open site is having to bear with trolls. They certainly don't take a hint- and their behavior is unethical in the extreme.

A couple of other blogs that I frequent are down, and I wonder if they got attacked. Both are strongly opposed to fundamentalism and don't tolerate any fundie trolls whatsoever.

Both had several discussions of the Haggard scandal. I wonder if it is a technical glitch, or something because of the scandal (and election).

Of course- I'm beginning to realize that where there is a big fundie church, chances are there is going to be an EVIL scandal attached. For instance, the local "fort God" (Assemblies of God megachurch) has been fighting the shame of the pastor's son scamming a bunch of people out of their life's savings. He's in prison now for his crimes- and some fundies are STILL trying to get him freed (including his parents and the church leadership).

I do remember a clear lack of sympathy or care for the victims of that twerp, when it became public and when the trial was going on.

Bob, my experience of fundamentalists is that they consider themselves to be above humanity at large. Just like the fundies who troll this site are forever telling us we're all going to hell. They are the ones in God's favor. The rest of us are cattle. What's it matter if one of their own took down a few head of cattle? Of course, now some of the fundies are learning that their leaders consider THEM to be little more than cattle. It's bound to sting a little.

These people are very tiring.

I don't know why I keep referring to Ted Haggard as Ken Haggard. Maybe it's because he looks like a life-size Ken doll.

Bob mentioned that some other progressive sites have been down and so has this one.

The financial scandal Bob describes sounds similar to one that happened here last year. Some bozo told people that everything necessary for great financial gain is in the Bible and all they needed to do was invest with him. Naturally this was a scam where early investors were paid "dividends" from new investments. This "Christian" financial advisor is now cooling his heels in the penitentiary but of course a lot of gullible people lost their life savings.

One of my friends nearly got caught up in that mess until I explained that anybody can call themselves a "financial advisor" and just because they advertise themselves as being "Christian" doesn't mean squat. She said that a Christian wouldn't cheat people and while I agreed with that statement, I got her to see that an unscrupulous con man would have absolutely no qualms about calling himself Christian in order to gain trust.

Did anybody see the picture of Haggard's church where it sports a huge sign telling people to vote in favor of Colorado's marriage amendment? I'd like to see the IRS investigate and revoke the church's tax-free status.

I read this morning that Ted admitted to the sexual activity.

Yeah... truthful Christian- NOT.

The sad part is that he (and the fundies) give the rest of us a black eye. They drive people away, they lay down burdens and don't lift a finger to help with them, they condemn and make people's lives more miserable.

This all is just the inverse of TRUE Christianity- which is quick to admit it's faults and weaknesses, does not ask of others what it cannot ask of itself, and tries to draw people to Christ (and help the hurting).

And, as we have seen, they invade places where they're not welcome and try to take over (or drive away the people that belong there).

Maybe the fallout from this will have them all retreat to their churches- and relinquish control of civic and other groups that they've assimilated (such as the ham radio group that I was member of for a few years).

It would also be nice that the trolls would leave. (We can only hope!)

Knowing what I do about the fundie mindset, I wasn't surprised to hear that another big name fell. They do have a tendency to hypocracy and lies.

By the way... the other sites I frequent state that they had a power failure in their server center.

They finally came up late last night.

It does seem strange that a number of progressive based sites were down at about the same time.

Might be coincidence. It also might not.

The fundies have already been running to defend Ted Haggard at all costs.

...how nice to see fundamentalists treat Haggard just like they treated Clinton.

Tenoch -- without a doubt Ken Haggard will be treated by the fundies with the same compassionate lovingkindess they bestowed upon Rush Limbaugh and his sad, misguided addiction to pain killers -- the same folks who denounced Bill Clinton as a whoremonger.

I read that a member of Haggard's church said his troubles just prove that Satan targets those with the most to lose. Yeah, right. Couldn't it be just possible that Haggard was always a charlatan con artist? Of course not! He said he was a man of God and preached biblical "Truth."

At least the sorry Haggard story has been eclipsed partially by the installation of the Rt. Rev. Katharine Jefferts-Schori as the first female Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church. Now more than ever, I feel blessed to be a member of the Episcopal Church and I'm eargerly anticipating Bishop Katharine's nine-year tenure as head of this branch of the Worldwide Anglican Communion.

There's no evidence there is a god, nor that god forgives or anything like that. While those of you here seem just gently gullible, all this "bible handed down from the heavens" -- when, again, there's no evidence of anything of the sort (believing what you're told doesn't count)...it's what's behind the gay hatred of those like Haggard.

There's no need to have religion to be moral. And there's not a thing wrong or immoral about being gay. Oh, do you think so? Why, because somebody told you there's a god, and somebody said god wrote it in the bible? Right. To borrow from Sam Harris, do you believe your frozen yogurt will turn invisible? Because there's as much evidence of that as there is for god.

It's the 21st century. Why not live rationally? I'd venture I'm far more moral as an atheist with secular ethics than many 'nutters.

PS I don't need religion to have this code: Be kind, live ethically, live rationally, and "leave the campground better than you found it."

And PS my closest friend is gay, and works seven days a week on getting access to health care for poor people. Are you telling me that he, if he doesn't believe in Jesus and all the religious crap, won't go to heaven, but Haggard will?

Boy, are you people ever sold a bill of goods.

Hi Amy and welcome.

My name is Cathie. I am a straight, middle-aged, never-married, childless woman who lives in what used to be known as THE SOUTH, but is now termed one of the mid-Atlantic states. I am also a third-generation Episcopalian who is active in my church.

And I agree with your post.

I don't need religion to tell me how to live an ethical life. Even as a Christian, I don't cling to my faith for its promise of eternal life. Frankly, the concept of eternal life strikes me as eternal boredom.

My faith draws me toward that synergy which is both inherent and transcendent within/beyond life as we know it. The Episcopal parish in which I am a member gives me many opportunities to live out an ethical life of service to others and to praise that which I cannot understand.

On Sundays I attend my parish's Eucharist service that lasts about 80 minutes. Those 80 minutes prod my conscience and inspire me to do more and better toward the service of others.

Whether or not a Judeo-Christian God exists is not my worry. I just know that for myself, I DO better in my thinking and actions when I go to church where I feel that I am " a part" of humanity rather "apart" from it.

Amy... I respect where you come from, but I think that your ire is directed towards the wrong folks.

Whoever said that you have to have religion to be moral? I certainly didn't- and the same goes for the members of CAP.

In fact, my wife and I were discussing that very fact earlier, that there are people who claim Christianity (generally fundamentalists) who are VERY immoral, and atheists who are quite moral and ethical.

The inverse is just as true. After all, we're all human beings!!!

As to our belief in God- well, mine is experiential- based on my experiences, but that doesn't give me the right to force that down your throat. As far as being rational- well, if anyone could be called rational, I think I would qualify. I am a scientist- an anthropologist. Most of the scientists I know are either Christian, or at least believe in a "higher power". We have no problems with evolution OR being Christian. I know of only a few scientists that could be called atheist.

Albert Einstein certainly isn't one of them! I can also name a great number of others who are not atheists. I don't think you could call them irrational.

The "what's behind" encourages me to fight for gay rights, to struggle against the damage done by fundamentalism, and to treat all people with as much kindness and care as I can. I can add to that list trying to recognize and understand the emic viewpoint of people (although I may disagree with them).

"It" also discourages any form of coercion whatsoever.

I don't think you could fault that, could you?

Bob -- I hope Amy posts again, don't you?

I popped back now because of a term that just ocurred to me for religion salesmen like Haggard, Falwell, Dobson, Parsley, Robertson, etc. They are "PULPITEERS," aren't they?

When that term blipped into my head, I was all set to say I invented it until I looked in the dictionary and found that the word is nearly 400 years old.

Pulpiteer is still a wonderfully erudite derogatory term, though, isn't it?

God wants us to be whole.
When will the Christian Right learn to see the big picture?
When a human being dissociates a part of his authentic self, his gayness, he separates from Love.
Is it the average? No. Is it of God, yes!

Yeah... I like it!!!

That says it all in ONE word!!! (especially since it sounds like puppeteer!)

I hope that Amy sticks around. I think that she might have something interesting to add- though I really don't know why she seemed to be jumping us.

And Charley- I don't remember your posting before, so WELCOME! I find what you said to be thought provoking (although it may provoke some nasty attacks from the fundie trolls).

Welcome Amy and Charley, and, (if you'll forgive me for saying so, Amy), thank God you're here. This board can use some new blood.

Christianity as defended by the apologists in this forum is TOXIC POISON which damages the natural order on this planet. This stems from your claim that all mankind is fundamentally flawed and requires your particular form of salvation. Your bible has filled your head with TOXIC ideas about right and wrong based on the irrational authority you give to magic (miracles) and fortune-telling (prophesy).

You say 'love the sinner and hate the sin' but your automatic label of 'sinner' is nothing more than self-righteous judgment which by its definition prevents you from loving anything.

SIN DOES NOT EXIST IN REALITY. It's a manmade construct, a concept in language, used to describe reality, but not the thing itself. Do animals sin? Do trees? Do rocks? Do stars? Why humans, then? Please, give it a rest. It doesn’t make rational sense.

Belief in the SUPERNATURAL, ghosts and demons and heaven paved in gold, now this is crazy thinking. Try for a change the idea that mankind has a NATURAL place on this planet and that we belong here in nature doing exactly what we do, warts and all. There is no need for a messiah because there's nothing to save. If ever there was an ANTI-CHRIST idea, this is it. The antithesis of Christianity’s message is that there's NOTHING WRONG WITH US just as there's nothing wrong with cats or dogs or ants or worms or dirt or water or air. It's all part of the natural order of things.

This is not to say that mistakes can be made, learned from, and improved upon. But instead of harping about right and wrong, try asking the question "Is it working?" Is it working for me to do this? Answering this question can yield different answers at different times, for sure, and will give you insight and integrity without the TOXIC condemnation and irrational fear of eternal consequences. Try it? You might find that it works. You also may find that love, compassion and forgiveness become easier to make manifest in your world.

Or you can pray in fear for the rapture and an end to it all. It’s your choice.

This is getting REALLY strange. Two people mistaking us for the fundies on one thread, in only a couple of days of each other.

As the saying goes, I think I smell a rat.

Big difference in Haggard and the common progressive and their choices and actions.

Haggard is sorry and remorseful about homosexuality.

He agrees with the teaching of Christ Jesus that a marriage is a man and a woman.

When it comes to homosexual action and behavior those "on the left" support and promote it. Not a word of sorrow about adultery.

The Bible (the Gospel message) stands in direct opposition to homosexuality and adultery.

Haggard was and is consistent on the Biblical truth about homosexuality being something to repent of, as well as adultery.

Hey Guys,

If that is truly Amy Alkon then we have a nationally syndicated advice columnist posting here or at least someone who is claiming to be her. Ya see, I read "the Advice Goddess" every week. This kind of shoot from the lip harangue isn't exactly her style. It wouldn't surprise me if all of these so called "secularist/atheists" are really fundies who are desperately trying to drive a wedge into us as part of some kind of scorched earth tactic.
I hope I'm wrong.

Ted Haggard's behavior, in yielding to his lusts and the resulting addictions, in apparent disregard of his responsibility as a Christian leader--is totally indefensible.
But the idea expressed by several here, is that he needed to repent long ago--not of his illicit sexual activity, nor of his illicit drug use, his lying, etc.--but of his preaching.
Haggard's consistent proclamation of God's Truth, over the years, seems to be the only problem you have with him.
He has publicly referred to himself as a liar and a deceiver, and admitted to his hypocritical actions, as well as his life-long struggle with sexual temptations. Such admissions are without any relevance to you, however, because all of his sinful activity would have been okay, as far as you are concerned--if he had just changed his preaching, so as to condone it. If he had just told people all along, there is no sin in homosexual behavior; then, in your minds, his behavior would have been okay.
It is beyond the mental capacity of the self-righteous, to understand how someone can know with all his heart that something is wrong, yet find himself tempted and yielding to that very thing. The self-righteous have convinced themselves (mentally) that none of their actions is sinful; and that anyone who proclaims a message of godliness according to the biblical standard, is 'spewing' hatred.
But it is actually hatred of God's Truth, on the part of the self-righteous (or so-called 'progressives') that is clearly manifest here. Envy, bitterness, and hatred of God and all that is holy, is clearly demonstrated in the blasphemous remarks constantly repeated by nearly everyone who regularly posts on this site. And while it is often desguised in the comments directed at Gary or myself ('fundies', 'trolls', etc.)--it is evident that the Lord Jesus Christ is the true object of your hatred.
Regardless of the fact that you despise God's standard of righteousness doesn't change it. Even though you willfully reject His offer of the sacrifice of His Son in order to make you acceptable in His sight--to make you righteous according to His standard--does not change the fact that it is the ONLY way to ever see the Kingdom of heaven. Your decision to manufacture your own standards, i.e., 'meals on wheels'--or your own savior ('Teyose')--does not change the fact that Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life--and faith in Him is the ONLY way to have forgiveness of sin, a relationship with the Father, and eternal life.
It is not difficult for a sinner who has acknowledged his sinfulness and received Jesus as Lord and Savior--along with God's mercy and forgiveness--to see how Ted Haggard will spend eternity in heaven... To understand that a sinner, in other words, can be saved, is not beyond someone who is a recipient of that same grace. But it is more than difficult--it is impossible--for the self-righteous to either understand or receive that redemption. Jesus came to save sinners. He cannot save the self-righteous. You will find that your own public 'pats-on-the-back' for your 'meals-on-wheels' service (or any other social work) will be your only reward. Your open denouncing and rejection of God's Word, and your defiant blasphemies in His face, will bring you to your eternal reward.
EH

"the self-righteous to either understand or receive that redemption. Jesus came to save sinners. He cannot save the self-righteous."

I guess that leaves all fundamentalists and dominionists out.

SAD.

I rather figured a dominionist troll would show up on this thread.

Frank, you're right. I rather suspect that it was "someone" posing as a atheist (although I could be wrong and it would be good if I was).

Talking about trolls- I would be ashamed of any progressive who trolled fundamentalist sites (indeed, the idea seems to be rather backward to me). I am not surprised that we have problems with them, considering the hatred and lies that come out of their church (ie, Ted Haggard).

BTW.. EH, you are wrong if you think we don't decry Haggard committing adultry. However, based upon observation, it goes with the territory. I am expecting more big name fundie preachers and leaders to be exposed in the near future- maybe not sexual hypocrisy like Haggard, but major lying and so on (possibly theft, selling souls and votes for political power, and things like that!)

Fundamentalism = lies = hypocrisy = desire for total control of people (without caring about them).

Although I don't think that there is anything like "special places in hell"- if anyone deserved one, it is a fundamentalist preacher.

Mr. Haggard, the words of the Prophet Samuel come down the portals of time: "by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme" (2 Samuel 12:14).

The issue is not what may happen to the "religious right," the elections, or what may come upon evanjellycalism (deliberate spelling), but that the name of the Holy God of Heaven has been blasphemed.

Also, Haggard never has been a Fundamentalist in the historical, doctrinal, Biblicist position. Many of you are condemning Fundamentalists when you don't even know what a real Fundamentalist is.

You can't write this stuff!

I mean what could be more perfect in terms of exposing the hypocrisy of the Fundamentalist Church.

Haggard, open finger-pointer and gay-basher, not only admits he had an affair, but hired a prostitute. Oh wait, a MALE prostitute. And did METH with him. Then, consistent with his fundy culture, LIED about it. Then finally, when backed into a corner, admitted it was all true!

Unbelievable!

Although, the saddest part is, instead of seeing the error of his ways, he went to his extremist fundy buddies (Falwell etc) for help. I can only imagine the level of brainwashing that happens at this sorry depth.

What a joke! It's like a Nazi executioner finding out that they are actually Jewish. And then going to Hitler for "help."

How many fundie leaders have to come forward and admit they're gay before they will stop bashing gays (themselves) and realize it's just a normal part of life.

I can see it now: Every single findie admits they're secretly gay yet they stay married and miserable and continue to bash gays every sunday (especially on election years).

I mean what will it take?

But I guess self-loathing makes sense when you see yourself as evil and wicked to the core.

Here's what I think: Being gay is normal and people (even fundies) know it deep down. Bible mistakenly calls it wrong. Fundies spend existence being torn (love/accept or hate/deny). So they bash and deny that part of themself and others only in a vain attempt to reconcile themselves with themselves.

Look, believe what you want, but don't push it on everyone else through hateful legislation: If you think gay marriage is wrong, then DON'T BE GAY AND DON'T GET MARRIED.

No one is stopping you from NOT doing it. But you don't afford others the same right. Choice is what gives things meaning. Maybe you've heard of it: free will?

The bigger deal is not the gay-love he enjoyed for three years, or even the occasional drug-use:

It's the boldfaced lying.

Lying to his wife, kids, friends, congregation, but most of all HIMSELF.

His ex-parishioners are crying and praying. Good. They are in turmoil. As they should be. Growth is hard, but long overdue. Time to take a deeper look into what they believe. What path do they follow: love or fear?

Happy to see that they seemed to have forgiven him for his trespasses. They embrace love. They embrace a gay man. Although, in reality, they have nothing to forgive at all since being gay is not a sin... it's still a good start.

I thought I posted on this forum. Any idea on how to find one's own posts? Do they censor for some reason?

Eddie Hughes,

Thank you for your latest stream of hate-filled demonization and condemnation.

Without your troll-bombs, we just wouldn't be the same. Now that you've had your say about Ted Haggard's scandal, you're free to go back to demonizing Bill Clinton for his scandal, all Democrats, and all people on the planet (the immense majority) who dare not to conform to your narrow patterns of political fundamentalism.

I was orginally going to send this to Brother Bob Bowers but I think I will post it here.
www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/1997-06-05/feature.html
It's an article on the myths and stories that the homeless children of Miami tell one another. Read them.

Those stories are powerful- and they reveal the total failure of fundamentalism at it's worst.

Homeless people are blamed for their problems. Like a friend of mine says, sometimes they get in trouble. People are being led to focus on the trouble, and not the condition that they exist in (or the REAL cause of homelessness- greed by the rich and powerful). Something that I've noticed is a correlation between conservativism and blame, and I think it is because they believe, as Limbaugh has SAID, "Greed is Good!" Of course, this totally ignores what Teyose taught.

Conservatives absolutely refuse to recognize that GREED and the desire for power is the REAL curse that haunts these people. When the fundies insist on making issues out of non-issues such as homosexuality and (as I've seen here) defend USURY and ABUSE OF THE POOR- they are committing the horror that these children live with.

I'd also bet that they would want to go there and preach "salvation" at these little kids- stealing the ONLY HOPE they have (instead of making their lives better and giving them hope!).

Fundies- this is the TRUE final result of your preaching- little children driven from Christ.

Thought I'd pass along an official statement from Soulforce, an organization I referenced above in my initial reaction to Mr. Haggard's predicament:

Soulforce Urges Compassion for Haggard and
Accountability for the National Association of Evangelicals

Peace Dove(Austin, TX) -- In response to the news that Rev. Ted Haggard has been dismissed by New Life Church and resigned as President of the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE), Soulforce Executive Director Jeff Lutes urged the gay community to be compassionate and simultaneously called on the leaders of the NAE to claim responsibility for their role in the crisis.

"Rev. Haggard is just one more tragic example of how lives are destroyed by the lies about gay and lesbian people perpetuated by the NAE, the Religious Right, and both the Protestant and Roman Catholic Church. Taught by the church to hate himself, the only option from his point of view was to lead a psychologically and spiritually damaging double life marked by denial and self-destructive behavior. Rev. Haggard is a victim of religion-based bigotry that regularly demeans and demoralizes gay and lesbian people and refuses to acknowledge that we are part of the American fabric, and that many of us form loving families and practice a deep faith in God."

The NAE holds that "homosexuality is a deviation from the Creator's plan for human sexuality." In a 2004 policy statement, the organization opposes legislation that would protect gays and lesbians from hate crimes or employment discrimination on the grounds that "such legislation inevitably is perceived as legitimatizing [sic] the practice of homosexuality and elevates that practice to a level of an accepted moral standard."

Haggard submitted his resignation as President of the NAE on Thursday, shortly after allegations of homosexual activity were aired on Denver talk radio. On Saturday, Haggard was removed as pastor of New Life Church in Colorado Springs. In a letter to his congregation, Haggard wrote "there's a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it for all my adult life." He also wrote that the church's overseers have required him to "submit to the oversight of Dr. James Dobson, Pastor Jack Hayford, and Pastor Tommy Barnett. Those men will perform a thorough analysis of my mental, spiritual, emotional and physical life. They will guide me through a program with the goal of healing and restoration for my life, my marriage, and my family."

In reaction to the unfolding events, Lutes said "Our community's anger at Rev. Haggard's hypocrisy is completely understandable. However, my hope is that our community will take the high road and extend an olive branch of friendship and support when he is ready to fully come out as a gay man. Dobson and the others will counsel him to bury, deny, and repress his sexuality even deeper than before. They will wound his spirit, and he is going to need our prayers and our compassionate message that God loves him, affirms him, and calls him to live his life openly with honesty and integrity."

I must say that is a whole lot more Christlike!!!

(And a lot better than hate and hostility!)

One can only guess at how many thousands of times in his life, Ted Haggard asked of "God" and "Jesus":
"lead us not into temptation"...
Guess it wasn't enough.
As with anything in Evangelicaland, it is NEVER enough.
What is the use in pretending for years that you are "hearing from God", and preaching how "God's plan" is supposed to work in your life?
When exactly does this "God" or "Jesus" finally give in and grant someone a request to their prayers?
Isn't it time to grow up, fess up and quit pretending to have an imaginary friend? Especially one who never grants what any "prayers" ask for?
I have nothing whatsoever against the probability of Mr. Haggard being gay; it's the lies and deception and hypocrisy, coupled with self-righteousness and intolerance that are so divisive and repugnant. All the very things that Evangelical Christians obsessively rail against.
How in the world DO millions of non-believers make it through their lives, remaining faithful to their spouses and telling the truth? Without any help from a church or an imaginary friend?

Dear Friends:

Thank you so much for the forum, I have found the comments here to be interesting and thought-provoking. Its good to see that there is a group of progressives like myself doing the work that needs to be done.

Consider this:

We have millions of people in this country who have no jobs. We have over 40 million people who have no health care insurance. We have men, women, and children in this country who go to sleep each night hungry. We are spending billions of taxpayer dollars on a quagmire in Iraq. And let's not forget about terrorism.

We have violence in our schools, violent crime is on the rise, skyrocketing gas prices, and on and on.

And what is the one thing that the religious right is most concerned about? The one issue that they will spend millions of dollars fighting? Is it any of the above issues?

Nope, they'll spend it fighting same-sex marriage.

I think that says it all when it come to the religious right and their supporters.

Thanks and Peace,
Perry

That's it in a nutshell, Perry!

Well, it looks to me like a lot of progressives (religious or not) have now told many politicians who kow-tow to Evangelicals/Fundies that they should pursue other interests besides forcing their ignorant, destructive toadyism on our national government.

Our wretched excuse for a president has been shown that he is NOT "the decider." The people are ultimately "the deciders" and we've told W we want change.

It'll probably be well into December, though, before we know for sure that Sen. George Allen has been sent back to political obscurity where he belongs.

Yeah. The fundies have so much control in our county that we didn't make out so good. The young repug that was elected last time looks like he got re-elected. Crist (who is a big "family values" person) got elected as well, even though there are indications that he's another Ted Haggard.

I'm getting really sick of the local paper- even they protect and "forgive" Ted Haggard, and support policies that are dominionist at heart. A liberal has a difficult time getting published (I'd say that maybe 30% of my letters get published, unless I only do one every few months). Yet there are hate-filled letters to the editor against liberals, homosexuals and immigrants on an almost daily basis (sometimes several a day)- some from people who seem to send letters on a weekly basis, if not more often.

I'll be glad to get out of Florida, once our education is done. I dispise this state and it's conservative (and crooked) politics.

I'm all in favor of forgiving Haggard if I thought he were truly sorry for anything besides getting caught as such a blatant hypocrite.

Here are a few hints on getting your letters to the editor printed regularly. First, don't submit more than 1 letter per month. When you do write, make what you say short and to the point. Also, ask a question - even a rhetorical one - because questions prompt others to respond. By following these rules, I've had a 100% success rate in getting my letters printed. I've even had one published in "The New Yorker" magazine this year.

I generally do that, but maybe one in 3 months actually makes it.

The tip about rhetorical questions is a good one. They are also easy to come up with.

Actually, it's good practice- writing within their limits (number of words). I still have to edit down a lot- and the shortest was 225 words.

November 7, many prayers were answered. Thanks be to God.

Bob -- 225 words is the shortest letter you've submitted to the editor of a newspaper? That's why you're not getting printed. My local newspaper has a 200 word max and most letters are MUCH shorter than that.

gpope - yes, Thanks be to God for what happened at the polls on Nov. 7. I read in today's local paper that George Allen may not ask for a recount. He does have that right, but the odds against it changing the election results are very slim. Virginia has an appointed, bi-partisan board of elections rather than one elected official so even if there is a recount, any funny business like what happened in Florida 6 years ago is highly unlikely. NPR said on Tuesday afternoon that Allen's presidential hopes are now effectively dashed because he should have been a shoo-in for re-election and he failed miserably.

I was talking with a friend of mine, and while we're glad for the country, at the same time Florida did miserably.

Repugs kept a lot of the seats that they held- and some really bad people (such as the local congresscritter, Putnam) are still there.

At least people were smart enough to ditch harris. She was bad dominionist news from the word go!

BTW.. our paper has a 300 word limit- and I've only exceeded it twice (and one of those letters DID get published).

I like your terms for politicos - "repugs" and "congresscritters."

In a way Florida being the way it is just might be a help. With both Harris and Foley coming from the Sunshine State, Jeb Bush is looking more and more like an extremely long shot as presidential material.

I read that Rev. Hair Do Haggard will undergo some kind of 3-5 year "reconcillation" (brain washing?) program. The spokesman for the program says about 50% of the program's participants flunk out and wind up selling shoes or cars.

That, or selling insurance.

That is what I've heard happened to the priest that kicked Sue and I out of one church we used to attend.

He got caught IN THE ACT of adultery, and it turns out that he had a history of it. He ended up giving up his "priesthood" and leaving the church.

Man this thread is going all over the place...we got the politics, the atheists, the fundies, etc...most intriguing.

I only take up cause with what the fundie said about the poor, in it he was way off base and should re-read the gospels a little closer. Jesus seemed to have as a mission of his - helping the poor and downtrodden in society (some might even call this social action). John the baptist notices, his disciples do (in Acts they help the poor), Paul does (see Galatians when he mentions he was asked by the disciples one thing when going to the Gentiles - help the poor). How is it a fundie can turn on it's face the very teachings of the disciples? Easy...by not reading it for themselves.

But as far as Haggard goes he is forgiveable, made some mistakes, said some hypocritical things, etc...that's between him and God to hash out...not between me and him or anyone else to be perfectly honest. But the thing that drives us nuts is the carelessness of the Evangelical Union to support such leaders and have their political sway, well what are we doing about (writing a post or getting involved). How do we expect these people to be held accountable in non-profit organizations unless we get involved in their churches and question their authenticity? Question their vision and a lot of their interpretations of scripture. Question their money practices and love of Capitalism. I say writing some words down makes us as much of hypocrites as the fundie...I mean Jesus lived something in those there writings - and in a lot of it he challenged and changed the structure of his day...the same can be said about Paul and the apostles.

I think we have as our right to get involved and challenge the very structure we disagree with (to see it changed to a useful, loving, caring, giving fellowship of people). It's not something we are forbidden...and let the fundie say what he wants...he still has to prove from his scripture anyways...as do we if we wanna see wholesale change (which is not impossible). I am game and I do such things within my city, nothing wrong with asking for accountability in both money and teaching practices...so what if you don't win the affection of many people...what have you got to lose...your ego?

Interesting thought, societyvs, although actually I think that we do challenge them on many levels.

However, based on my experiences, going to fundie churches and trying to effect change is an exercize in pain and futility. You'll just get cursed (not cussed at) and thrown out (as I've SEEN). And considering some of the things that have been going on lately, you may not even leave alive (ie, they are becoming willing to advocate violence!)

It's also not fun being the target of a vicious sermon BY NAME because you dared question something the pastor does. Been there, done that, don't want to go again.

One last point- that would be somewhat like what the IRD does. We shouldn't use their tactics.

I think that, better than that, if we just live our lives in an honest, honorable fashion, and try to portray the Love of God, we are doing a great deal to counter their poison. If people sense that we are not judgemental or harsh, and then compare that to what they experience, that has a lot of leverage. And, if we counter their arguments in public (such as in letters to the editor, public speaking, and so on), people realize that there is another way to think.

Speak truth and point out falsehood (and show how it is false), and you can do a lot of good.

Bob's right -- attending fundie or evangelical churches simply to counter their beliefs won't help. I protest those religious organizations by NOT going to them and being an active member of my own progressive-minded Episcopal parish.

I just wish that there was a REALLY progressive parish in our area.

Sue and I left a large parish because it was being taken over by dominionists (some openly "converts"- yeah, right- from the Assemblies of God). It was also slowly shifting conservative over the time we attended. It went from being welcome in regalia, to having some people tell us we should start assimilating AND snide comments.

The rector (and especially the assistant) led the charge against ordaining or marrying homosexuals. Shortly after that, they started supporting "intelligent design".

I wonder what was said about Ted Haggard. I know both of us got tired of being second class citizens because we are poor and showed pride in our heritage.

The Bishop of central Florida (Howe) also is very racist. He actually wrote me in a rejection letter (for trying to approach ordained ministry) that he did not plan to ever have any ministry to Native Americans, nor did he consider having such a plan or ministry in the future.

There are over 100,000 of us AT LEAST in this state.

Like South Carolina, Dallas/Fort Worth and Pittsburgh, Central Florida is no where for a progressive Episcopalian to be these days! Maybe you and Sue should move up here and be a part of the Diocese of Southwestern Virginia. Just a few months ago our bishop ordained the first female Monachan (sp?) Native American priest.

NICE!!!

Well, it will be a couple of years at best before we can move, due to being in the grad program- and I hope to go all the way to PhD here.

Then we plan to move to southwest Georgia/North Florida/ Possibly Alabama, within a couple of hours(at most) of our reservation.

Of course, plans could change- but that is what we're hoping.