The Hidden Dangers of the Christian Right

Mel White is a liar, a sexual pervert, and a moral idiot. He rejects the clear and unmistakeable commandments of God and seeks to replace them with his own perverted version of pseudo-morality. He rejected God and worships himself. He is already comdemned and damned by the same God he has rejected. To give any credibility to this fool is the height of stupidity.

When people defend doing evil in God's name, you know that they have followed the wrong path.

Especially when that evil is exposed and people say the exposer is evil (take a hint, Gary).

Homosexuals are human beings, just like you are. They are NOT inherently evil. Committing murder in God's name IS.

I was never prouder of being a student at Azusa Pacific than when we welcomed the Soulforce riders by offering them the opportunity to discuss and fellowship with us.

Especially when other area Christian universities saw their students rocking and heckling the bus.

Being a Christian means at the least treating all persons, even, no, especially "sinners" (aren't we all?), with respect and love.

It isn't easy, but it is Christ-like.

Bob,

Muder is wrong, but so is homosexuality. And saying something is not wrong that God said is wrong is wrong too.

Gary,

"...aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
I'd be a little more careful about judging other people. Unless, of course you're ready to be judged by those same standards. I am a firm believer in "what goes around comes around." You're walking down a long hard, narrow road and I suspect there are a few burned bridges in your wake. That road leads to a dark and lonely place. I would hate to see you or anyone else there.

Frank,

Thanks for the advice. I have not said anything about Mel White that I don't think I can prove. I am willing for God to judge me by the same standard that I use to judge White.

As far as burning bridges, I don't have any bridges with Mel White. Are you referring to someone else?

By the way, I do like Star Trek and sometimes watch reruns.

Mel White is taking a few incidents and playing into the whole liberal fear-mongering that makes fundamentalist Christians equal to Islamic terrorists. And I am no fan of neo-fundies either.

Mel White is also a homosexual trying to justify his sin by pointing out the sins of these wicked men who killed the gay couple. His book is a deception, and homosexuality, while it may be a civil rights issue in some minor ways, but in others, it is merely immorality seeking approval.

Gary,

What I was trying to say in my half baked way is that those of us with strong personal convictions of any sort have a tendency to move on down our lifepath with a strong focus. Sometimes, other people in our lives move out of that focus. We always hope that the parting of the ways would be amiable but God sometimes has other plans and the parting is unpleasant. I know. I've had to do it myself. We wind up severing all ties i.e. burning bridges. More often than not it is for our own spiritual well-being but that doesn't make it any the less difficult. I hope that I've explained what I meant.
I also respect your position vis a vis judgement. There's way too much ducking of personal responsibility in this country. I am glad to hear that you are willing to take it to the highest level.
I hope that TS Ernesto doesn't cause you too much trouble. Stay safe, my friend and may God watch over you and keep you in the palm of His hand.

Frank,

Thank you. I don't think Ernesto is going to cause much of a problem in my area.

I find that most of the bridges burned between me and other people were burned by them. Sometimes when people learn that I am a Bible believer, and that I won't compromise about what I am sure of, they stay away from me. Often, real believers make unbelievers nervous. And sometimes we infuriate them.

Gary,

How right you are. I learned that a long time ago when I was a member of VVAW(Vietnam Veterans Against the War). My particular chapters stance was basically "If we're not in it to win it then let's go home and quit getting a lot of good Americans killed for nothing." You'd be amazed at the number of people that thought that that was somehow treasonous. What an eye opener that was!
On another topic, I've always liked the Original Star Trek the best. I saw it when it first premiered on tv. Wow! It was just so incredible. Anyway, take care.

Mel White is a man of incredible faith, courage, and integrity. There are few Christian public figures I respect more. His prophetic witness as a gay Christian, and his commitment to relentless non-violence as a form of activism, inspire me almost everytime I encounter Soulforce's work.

Having read other work by Mel, including his autobiographical "Stranger at the Gate", my only reservation about the book is Mel's sermon-like conversational tone in writing, which I personally find a little tedious.

IMO, if all that can be said against the book is Gary and Co.'s not-unexpected ad hominem homophobia, it says sometime very positive and powerful about the book.

I personlly like Mel's stand on accepting and having compassion for the 'gay' community, I don't see a single poroblem with that. Some want to argue ethics on the issue but shouldn't 'love of others' over-ride any ethic? What's being judgmental towards the gay community gonna do anyways? Being judgmental seems to be causing more problems than solving.

Mel is naive on one point about the Williams brothers and their heinous crime. Those brothers didn't get their teachings from the fundie religious right, they got their teachings from neo-nazi's and the kkk propoganda (websites and the such). Just did some studying on that case the other day and was sickened by the ideals those brothers held biblically, then I found out what interpretation they were using for their crime and it all made sense. They weren't religious right ideals they grasped but clan-ideals they bought into. Just for some clarification.

But I do agree that the religious (fundie) idealism is causing more headaches than actual solutions. They want to picket gay pride celebrations but do nothing to 'lend a hand' to those people (in terms of servitude). That type of Christianity is Christianity in name alone and not spirit. Think Christ would condemn people for their 'gayness'? If so, prove where he does that to any people different than himself (case in point being lepers who were outcasts in Jewish society and not to be touched). Christ makes a pretty good case for not doing that in such teachings as 'love your neighbor', 'being a servant', and 'loving your enemies' (if these people happen to be your enemies). What's so wrong with loving and accepting them?

I think it's a fair stand and one I would more than likely take also. I have come to this epiphany in life: wherever I go, everyone is welcome (including gays, Muslims, gang-bangers, drunks, etc). Why? Cause I think God's love surpasses even what I think it can do.

That, Societyvs, is the essence of TRUE Christianity.

Bob thanks for the comment. I really appreciated what you had to say in another strand of these blogs I read, the one about Billy Graham.

Proverbs 6 16 There are six things the LORD hates--no, seven things he detests: 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that kill the innocent, 18 a heart that plots evil, feet that race to do wrong, 19 a false witness who pours out lies, a person who sows discord among brothers. Did God forget Gay.When dose any one call the Religious right what they are. http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/politicalmenu.htm • A catalogue of George W. Bush's Lies • Leading Hypocrites of the Religious Right

What on God's earth does killing of two people have to do with the "Christian Right"? This is murder pure and simple, and the murderers were obviously driven by some force that had nothing whatsoever to do with God. It appears to me that this article is a very cheap and underhanded way to create compassion for the homosexual lifestyle. God makes it perfectly clear in the Old and the New Testament, that He calls homosexuality sin, but He also calls murder sin.

Here we go again with the pick and choose Christian morality. I would like you to get out your Bibles and start following every single directive indicated in the OT. Oh, and don't take into consideration the time the Bible was written, the various authors and their "spin" on what they were talking about. After you start following all of those, then you can start complaining about homosexuality. Until you know the mind of God and what He really thinks about this issue (since Jesus said absolutely NOTHING about it), why don't you just admit that it's something you don't understand. Something that you just can't relate to and maybe even scares you a bit. Fear does that to a person.

G.B.

Buy we do know what God thinks about homosexuality; He condemns it.

Because you, and others, refuse to believe what God has said is no reason for the rest of us to ignore the Bible.

Gary... you KNOW we don't ignore the Bible. I've seen more solid biblical scholarship on this sig than I've EVER heard spouted from the lying lips of fundamentalist preachers.

What is really sad is hearing fundamentalist preachers rant and rail against education and Seminaries. I've actually heard AG preachers brag about never going to seminary or even a Bible college (later PROVEN to be a lie). I've heard them condemn anyone who goes for any higher education. There is only one reason why these idiots would do that- they want to keep people under their CONTROL. Protect the status quo. Maybe even try to return to the days of slavery. Promote ignorance and lack of understanding. In other words, keep people from learning the truth.

I've also caught them lying to people (including in sermons), condemning anyone who spoke the truth, and deliberately twisting the scriptures to force people to go against their own best interests. You should know and understand the connnection between this sort of lying and evil.

It is really evil when they encourage and support murdering (stoning ring a bell?) people because of their sexual orientation. Homosexuals are people, just like YOU, Gary. Remember what Jesus said about casting stones???

"Often, real believers make unbelievers nervous. "

Gary, how is it that you know you are a real believer? How can you be so sure?

"And sometimes we infuriate them."

You are right about that. I believe the most honest thing a person can say about God is "I dont'know." You can believe that God has revealed himself in the bible, but you cannot know that. The infuration that I feel is generally directed towards those who are unwilling to consider the possibility they are mistaken regarding their beliefs in God. In this world people get hurt because of the certainties that some hold regarding God.

"Because you, and others, refuse to believe what God has said..."

Belief is not an action. Belief, or lack of, is a byproduct of information processing. One cannot refuse to believe. One can refuse to acknowledge belief, one can choose to ignore evidence that they find difficult, but belief is not the result of action or choice.

Do you disagree Gary?

If you consider belief in God to be a choice then how do you reconcile your "choice" to believe in God with Ephesians 2:8...

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God"

Now, I will admit I could be cherry picking because I do not know the bible that well, but tell me Gary...does the bible indicate that belief is a choice?

Hey, G.B., I wonder, who is picking and choosing. I take the Bible literally, because all scripture is inspired, and besides, unless you accept all of it, where do you draw the line, and God is the same, yesterday, today and forever, no spin, and yes, Jesus did not mention homosexuality, but Paul did in Romans 1 (I am sure, you are familiar with the passage.) So, it sounds to me like you are trying to explain something into the Bible that is not there. Face it. God is forgiving, but He does not tolerate sin, never has, never will. I hope you will realize that, before it is too late, because it is appointed unto men once to die, and afterward the judgment.

Brian,

I might prefer to discuss some of your questions privately. If you want to exchange e-mails then send me one.

"One cannot refuse to believe." You might be right. But we can choose to ignore evidence. If we ignore evidence, is there any practical difference between that and refusing to believe?

As far as God condemning homosexuality, in fact God doesn't, men do. The Levitical Code was not written by God, but by human beings, as Jesus clearly indicates in The Gospels, rejecting parts of it repeatedly as unjust, mean-spirited, and not in accordance with the true Will of God. He openly states that these doctrines are of men, not God, and proceeds to go against them at every opportunity (preventing stonings, touching and healing lepers, healing on the sabbath, dismissing hand-washing rituals as unnecessary, allowing his disciples to pick grain on the sabbath, forgiving sins, speaking with the samaritan woman at the well, etc., etc., etc.), while upholding and expounding on The Ten Commandments, God's true Law, as well as presenting His own instructions and commandments (which were of course the ACTUAL Will of God from the mouth of God Incarnate).

In the Old Testament much is made of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, and yet in Genesis 19 we find an utterly charming story where Lot offers to turn over his two daugthers to the men of Sodom for them to rape instead of the angels, and later, after fleeing the destroyed city, Lot's daughters have sex with their father. Truly charming. Something to remember here is that the crowd of men who wanted to rape the strangers (angels, unknown of course to them), was certainly comprised almost entirely of HETEROSEXUAL men, so their "sin" was wanting to humiliate and commit violence against the strangers, and not one of homosexual "lust". In fact, looking just at the Old Testament, Deuteronomy 29:17-26 and Deuteronomy 32:32-38 suggest that the "sin" of Sodom was idolatry, and Isaiah 1:2-23, Isaiah 3:8-15, Lamentations 4:3-6, Amos 4:1-11, and most importantly Ezekial 16:49-50 ALL suggest that the "sin of Sodom" was in the neglect of the poor and greed (hmmm, seems many of our modern-day Pharisees, neocon "christians", are Sodomites!). Yes, St. Paul most certainly made some comments suggesting homosexuality was a sin, but debate continues as to whether he was referring to temple prostitution or homosexuality in general. In either case, St. Paul, great Man of God that he was, was NOT God, and his observations regarding homosexuality, as with his encouragement for everyone who could possibly do so to refrain from sex and remain chaste, were not based on anything Jesus had said, and were his own observations/opinions entirely. St. Paul was, after all, HUMAN.

A final comment about Star Trek. One might want to keep in mind (if one is of a "conservative" mindset and enjoys Trek), that pretty much everyone associated with every Trek series, from writers, directors, actors, etc. to the series creator (the late Gene Roddenberry) and his wife Majel Barrett Roddenberry (Nurse Chapel on the original series, and Counselor Troi's mother in Next Generation), have been extremely pro gay-rights and very vocal about that through the years. Many of them have attended gay fundraisers, have spoken out against anti-gay referendums and agendas, and contributed regularly to Liberal/Progressive causes. The very heart of Star Trek is one of extreme pluralism and tolerance, AND the series presents aa entire galaxy of beings who quite obviously possess divine souls..... but how could this be when The Bible doesn't mention them? Oops! Well, The Bible left out dinosaurs too, to be fair.

Peace and Blessings.

Brother Damien

Leviticus Chapter 18 is where God says that homosexuality is wrong. And it is God who said it, not Moses or any other man, (see verse 1).

The Bible is crystal clear about the wickedness of homosexuality, regardless of the context in which homosexuality may be practiced. Those who defend homosexuals are wicked too. If you are going to pervert the word of God to defend queers, you might as well do the same for thieves and adulterers.

If man wrote the Levitical Code, then man also wrote the rest of the Bible, and therefore none of it is from God, including anything recorded that Jesus said.

Now, remind me again about just how many injunctions against (specifically) homosexuality there are in the Old Testament (or new, for that matter) compared to those against usury (there are TEN in the Old Testament alone against usury, several in the New, and a very strong prohibition against it in The Gospel of Thomas). And YOU Gary defended usury (repeatedly), a practice that is burdening a hell of a lot more people in a far more substantial way than are homosexual unions between consenting adults or the "threat" of gay marriage. But defending the abomination of usury is not wicked, and defending homosexual people is ( and homosexuals do not choose to be that way to begin with--thieves and adulterers CHOOSE to engage in those behaviours, but since, by "conservative" estimates there are at the very least between 15 to 20 million gay and lesbian people in the U.S. alone--more reliable studies have put the number at closer to 30 million-- it negates the possiblity of homosexuality being an "aberration", and puts it in the category of the congenital). Usury, which drives many people to suicide and bankruptcy, is OK and should be defended regardless of the number of injunctions against it in the OT, because it's good for the beloved Free Market System (in the same way that the pro-slavery christians defended slavery in the 19th century, using the Old Testament, because slavery was good for the southern economy), but defending gay people and their rights isn't. Precious. Also, Leviticus 18 was handed down as having come from God through tradition only, but if it was (which is highly questionable, because unlike The Ten Commandments, which Jesus actually referred to and elaborated on, Jesus rejects parts of the Levitical Code outright, proving it flawed, as St. Paul reminds us in Hebrews) then we must assume that Lot's daughters having sex with him was OK, and also that God doesn't mind lesbianism, because the injunction you refer to ONLY prohibits men from having sex with men, and says nothing about women having sex with other women. By your logic we MUST accept that lesbian sex is acceptable to God. Of course, taking the literal view of the Old Testament we are forced to accept that there are legitimate arguments for slavery, polygamy, and women being subservient to men.

By the way, there is a HUGE difference between what was written in the Old Testament books and The Gospels; the first being stories, fables, and cultural laws passed down first orally and then written down (and altered, edited, etc. through the ages) over a couple of thousand years, whereas The Gospels were recorded during a time when more educated people (thanks largely to Rome, oddly enough) were able to write down what Jesus said and pass these bits and pieces of his teachings along to others, and numerous witnesses were there to give eye-witness testimony and back up the stories of countless others who had witnessed miracles or heard Him preach. Not only were his teachings probably recorded at least in part by the Sanhedrin (this would have been required according to procedure), but also by the Roman Governor's office no doubt (and this idea is backed up by the fact that the Roman Government was aware of His teachings and prohibited them for a very long time). Additionally, a number of Jesus' disciples could read and write, and even had "higher" education, like Matthew. Not too many eye witnesses around for events in the Old Testament. If you can't grasp that fact, you REALLY need to head back to school.

Peace and Blessings.

Brother Damien

Damien,

Whether homosexuality is congenital, or whether there are few or many homos is irrelevant as to the sinfulness of homosexuality. It is sinful because God said so.

Disbelieving God's commanments does not annul them. His commandments are true even if no one believes them.

Jesus never repudiated Leviticus 18:22. Prove he did, if you can. Let us see the evidence.

Having been raise by Egyptian royalty, I expect that Moses was very well educated and could both read and write. He was intelligent and very capable.

You, and others who defend homosexuals, are in rebellion against Almighty God. Repent or suffer the consequences of your rebellion.

Rebellion???

GARY, HATE is rebellion against God. Showing kindness, love, and caring for people irregardless of their sins IS NOT (and it doesn't matter if we disagree with your interpretation of scriptures).

Think about all of the hatred you've spewed on this website.

By the way... people DID write the Bible. God didn't sit down and write it. The scriptures cover a period of over a thousand years! Many of them were already in existance when Teyose was physically with us, so you cannot argue that He wrote them. The rest were written over quite a few years after He returned to Heaven.

Then after many councils, arguments, politics, and so on, they became the collection referred to as the Bible.

Bob,

You "progressives" contradict God's clear commandments. You refuse to agree with God about what is sin. THAT, Bob, is a sign of rebellion against God.

The unvarnished truth is, none of you believe what the Bible says, unless you can find someting it says that you agree with! Genuine, believing Christians believe what the Bible says even when they don't like what it says. And none of you believe that God inspired the Scriptures. That is plain from your attitude toward it. You justify the wicked and condemn the righteous! You are wicked, rebellious sinners who need to repent! If you don't, then judgement awaits.

You are putting words in our mouths again, Gary, something you have no right to do. What is worse, you are judging us falsely and wrongly.

We DO say that God inspired the scriptures- but we disagree with the fundamentalist characterization of God's inspiration as "dictated from on high". You know what our view of scriptures is. We study them in detail, trying to get PAST the human error and ethnocentricity to understand what God is trying to tell us. I would say that most of the people here spend a lot more time in scriptural study (and that is NOT just reading them over and over again) than most fundamentalists even consider.

Gary, it should be obvious to you by now that all of your ranting and raving does not do you any good, in fact, all you've done is shown the hatred, error, and ANTI-CHRIST errors of fundamentalism for anyone who reads your messages. I think that somehow you have it in your mind that you're going to somehow convert us. THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. If you're trying to "show us up" for the lurkers... the vitriolic hatred that you've expressed time and time again is only doing the opposite. If you think that your words will draw us to Christ, well, all you've done is try to place barriers between us and God. In other words, Gary, the very things you say about us can be said about you, and I would argue that based upon the very things you've said, it is far worse.

Gary, we're all human beings. Error is part of the package (and you can trade the word sin for the word error if you want- they mean the same thing). Consider how you've come across in that light... you keep ranting and raving at us for what you consider to be our sins (errors).

LOOK TO YOUR OWN FOR ONCE!!!

Gary,

What we have been trying again and again to make you and other conservative visitors to this site realize is the hypocricy that YOU indulge in. Here you are a literalist, ranting about "queers", and you have openly (and on more than one occassion) defended usury on this board, AND YET there are considerably more injunctions against usury in the Old Testament alone than there are against homosexuality in The Bible. Additionally, you did not address the issue of the literalist explanation of the Old
Testament injunctions against men having sex with men, but its neglect of mentioning women having sex with women. According to a literalist view then, women having sex with women is acceptable. And you avoided addressing the issue of how a literalist can avoid arguments that are in favour of slavery, polygamy, and women being subservient to men (or their property), since Old Testament Law and customs clearly say these things are "acceptable". As St. Paul suggested, Jesus' New Covenant was a BETTER one (enacted on better promises-- Hebrews 8), and IF the Old One (the very Levitical Code you have once again quoted), was "faultless" then a new covenant would not have been required. In the same chapter of Hebrews Paul says that by declaring His New Covenant, Jesus has declared the Old One OBSOLETE, and that it shall pass away. Jesus DID reject the Levitical Code (stoning people to death, ritual washing of hands, not picking grain on the sabbath, not touching lepers, not healing on the sabbath, etc. were ALL part of that code), and encouraged His followers to observe HIS commandments (IF they loved Him).

Gary, you and other conservative "christians" regularly defend a whole list of abominable things (usury, war, greed, prejudice) and indeed judgement from God (and God alone) IS awaiting all of you. THAT is what we "mean old Progressives" are trying to make you see. But just as the "christian" defenders of Manifest Destiny in the 18th and 19th Centuries, or of slavery in the 19th Century, or the segregationists of the mid 20th Century, you insist on cherry-picking the scriptures which you see as putting a seal of approval on all manner of evil. But you are quite correct--- judgement from God IS awaiting you. Let it be on your own head.

Peace and Blessings.

Brother Damien

Bob,

Yes, I know what your view of scripture is. You say you are trying to understand what God is trying to tell you. But I wonder if God is trying to tell you anything.

As I have said before, I am not trying to convert you. I don't want you converted. Stay just as you are and it will be all right with me.

Damien,

I remind you, again, that there is no record in the Gospels of Jesus ever condemning usury. Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple, but he did not tell them to stop their money changing and whatever was involved in it. All Jesus did was get them out of the temple.

Now, that does not mean that usury is right and I'm not saying that it is. I'm just using one of liberals favorite tactics when you want to argue that something you endorse, and don't want to be considered sinful, was not mentioned by Jesus in the N.T.. I'm just showing the silliness of that tactic.

Then, Gary, I would say that you indeed do worship the devil, although you claim to worship God.

You say that you want me to stay the way I am. You've also indicated that in your mindset, I'm going to hell.

That means you WANT me to go to hell. God is not willing that ANYONE should perish, but that all should attain eternal life. You are certainly going against God's wishes there! (although any attempt by you to proselytize would be laughable at best.)

Gary, this is a blog for CHRISTIANS. Not a place for people filled with hate and who WANT people to go to hell like you just PROVED you do.

So, why are you here?

Gary's arguments here reflect an objective difference of opinion between progressive and conservative Christians. Gary accepts and demands that the Bible is the literal word of God. The Bible, from his perspective, cannot be debated or questioned.

Brother Damien, like me, suggests that the Bible is the handiwork of people who sought to comprehend and reflect God's presence in their lives and in the world. I hold this opinion because it is clear through textual & other forms of academic and theological criticism that the books of the Hebrew Bible and New Testament came to us from a vast variety of sources. Editors, scribes, and theologians have redacted the gospels of Jesus Christ throughout history.

It's fascinating that, for the first few hundred years or so, early Christians were content with holding contrasting views of the canonical "Bible." Orthodox requirements of scripture were not mandated until the 5th Century CE. Varying views of canonical scripture still exist given that some denominations accept the validity of the Apocrypha while other denominations do not permit these books into their scripture.

The real problem with Gary’s argument is that he demands that his truth is absolute and therefore all Christians must adopt his beliefs or be damned. He will of course state that this is not his requirement, but God’s. I reject such arguments given that all religious belief systems are contextual and historical, to including the 2000-year old history of Christianity. A deeper and more important question to me seems to be whether or not we can agree to disagree and find ways to live into the in-breaking of God's realm while participating as Christians in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ regardless of how we might understand these Christian truths.

Bob,

I think you have misunderstood the verse you misquoted. That verse was written to and about believers, not the general public.

If this is a blog for Christians, why are you here?

Jim Strader,

The answer to your deeper and more important question is no.

I see. I gather your goal is to try to take over this sig and turn into something that is actually hostile to Christianity.

You, by your own words, accept that this site is Christian, yet you reject nearly everything this Blog stands for. Therefore, since you also do not want to change anyone to your way of thinking, your goal must be to disrupt and/or destroy a CHRISTIAN site that you've admitted is Christian. That really sounds like the acts of a Godly person- NOT.

By the way... I DO understand and quoted the verse correctly.

And it was in context.

Since God is not willing that anyone should perish, then God must also NOT be willing that homosexuals perish.

I've heard of homosexuals praying and praying that their orientation be changed- without recieving an answer. I've heard and read that this is a very common occurance because of the sort of preaching people like you have done. If God truly was so condemning towards homosexuality, then there should have been a bunch of recorded miracles. THAT HASN'T HAPPENED. Therefore, logically, homosexuality must not be as big of an error as you would have it be. Otherwise, if God answers prayer, and people pray for a change that will enable them to avoid hell, these prayers would be answered- every one!

That means that YOU (and those who preach like you) are in error. And that is what we ALL have been trying to tell you all along.

Bob,

I never said that this is a Christian site. I said "if" this is a Christian site, why are you here?

Your reading of II Peter 3:9 is wrong. If God is willing that all people everywhere should repent and none should perish, then all people everywhere would repent, because God always gets what He wants. But the fact is, most people don't repent of their sins, and most go to Hell.
That verse is talking about the people God has chosen to redeem. It is not talking about all people everywhere.

Maybe God does not want to answer the prayers of some homosexuals. Is God obligated to hear and answer everyone's prayer? Can you prove that? Give me a Biblical reference and I'll look at it.

Have you been to hell to see for yourself?

It is amazing to see how badly certain portions of so-called Christianity has fallen from the teachings and beliefs of the early days.

"The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love."

"We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him."

Gary, hatred is the antithesis of love.

As far as why I am here- I find CHRISTIANS who think much like I do here, with the exception of people like you. I agree with the basic premises of this site, unlike you. I would say that I fit in here, unlike you.

Actually, the things you've said, wrong as they are, have been helpful. I remember better the preaching I heard at the AG churches- and understand better why I am still dealing with major spiritual issues 24 years later. I walked out of those churches and publically renounced them (and I do so again). The idea of the capricious God (which is what you're preaching now) has been a curse to me and to Christianity as a whole. Such preaching tends to support the status quo, it also tends to afflict the afflicted and comfort the comfortable. It encourages an "us or them" mentality- which is the root cause of all of the religious wars that have happened. In other words, it is an evil doctrine.

By the way... based upon the scriptures I quoted above, I would say that there are many homosexuals who know God. Since you claim that God creates everything (and on this I would agree, but I don't agree on your idea of how), then God created the people as homosexuals. Thus, they don't have a choice in the matter- and if so, punishing them would be evil, because God would be punishing them for the very thing HE did. That is the ultimate in capriciousness and injustice.

Rather than trying to justify your hatred and hostility, why don't you consider that maybe YOU are in error? After all, "for all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God".

Bob,

I have never been to Hell. Jesus said, in Matthew 7: 13,14, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

A capricious God? Could it be that you are mistaking God's sovreignty for caprice? Does God not have the right to do what He pleases with His creatures?

If God makes homosexuals, then it could also be argued that He makes liars, adulterers, pedophiles, murderers, etc.. The Bible says we are all sinners. Does that mean God made us all that way?

I've read that scripture too- and it doesn't indicate fundamentalism is the straight and narrow way. Indeed, based on the scriptures I've quoted, I'd say that fundamentalism is NOT the way at all- considering the hatred and rejection that I've heard come from fundamentalists like you.

A God who does not CARE for what happens to everyone is capricious. Your idea of a sovereign God is capricious and uncaring, and ABUSIVE. Where is Love in your idea of God? So far, NOTHING you've said has mentioned Love (except to reject it). God is Love. The scriptures say so. Why don't you accept the scriptures that you claim are inerrent and infallible??? A loving God does not "do what he pleases with His creatures"!!!

By the way... predestination is the opposite of free will. You've claimed to believe in predestination, but your last sentence is an argument for free will.

It is true that homosexuality is a wrong behavior but reacting to that wrong with another wrong is just as wrong. The reason Jesus is so very popular was because of His message of forgiveness. In the case of the homosexual couple, we needed to be compassionate and understanding, but also be able to guide the two men into correct behavior in a brotherly or fatherly way and not in a vengeful way. The best way to do this would have been to calmly explain what it is that was done wrong and tell them the proper alternatives. This needed to be handled in a civilized and compassionate manner reflecting what we learned through Christ's teachings. It is not our place to be judge, jury and executioner. That is God's domain; not ours.

That idea is based upon the assumption that (1) orientation is some sort of choice, and (2) it is based upon faulty knowledge and misunderstanding.

No amount of "telling" is going to change a person's sexual orientation. It takes far more than that- and in most cases is completely useless. There has been sufficient research done on that- and the stories of homosexuals who for years tried to change their orientation are fairly common and sometimes quite painful to read.

So, what to do? Treat them as Christ would- and that does NOT mean rejecting or expelling them.

Jesus sat and ate with sinners. That was a VERY significant move- the people He sat and ate with were the rejects of society. He didn't go in there and preach at them or call them "sinners going to hell" and so on- He was loving and kind. I would bet that there were homosexuals and other societal rejects among those around Him!!!

It was also a significant move in that it implied acceptance.

"For God so Loved the world"... and that includes sinners. I would hope so, for we ALL are sinners. "For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God".

"Jesus sat and ate with sinners." "it implied acceptance." If by that you mean that Jesus either did not consider them sinners, or that Jesus accepted them with their sins and demanded no repentance, then you have missed the point.

God's love of sinners does not mean that their sins are ignored or excused. God's holiness and justice demands that sin be judged and atoned for. Jesus died and rose again that those who are given faith might receive mercy, have their sins forgiven and be reconciled to God. Everyone else receives justice and must pay the penalty for their sins themselves.

Sexual orientation is a trick. It implies that one's desires are God-given and beyond one's control and therefore cannot be wrong. But that idea is not supported by the Bible. The Bible says we all have a sinful nature, inherited from Adam, the first man, that prompts us to sin. We all are sinners before a Holy God in need of redemption and forgiveness. Those who recognize their sin and repent and believe on Christ get forgiven. Those who do not must pay for their sins themselves.

Gary, you are a sinner.

If you follow a teaching common to most conservative churches (I heard it loud and clear and repetitively in the AG churches years ago)...

A homosexual is no more of a sinner than you are.

Sin is sin. So the thing you seem to hate most, homosexuality, is no more sinful than the wrongs and errors you commit.

Think about it.

Bob,

The point is that homosexuality is a sin, not something to be proud of. And not something to seek society's acceptance of, as your crowd does.

Which society?

Rejection of homosexuality is a cultural phenomena, not a universal idea. It is rejected in some societies, and accepted in others. In some it is even the norm.

Rejection of homosexuality also actually has very little to do with religion. YOUR IDEA of religion rejects it, but that is a very limited view not held by all Christians. I find ironic that the same strict, narrow view you have towards homosexuals is the same one that the fundamentalist moslems have.

But then, you define Christianity by yourself and claim it comes from the Bible, same as they do with their ideas of religion (different book, same attitudes).

Think about that. There is very little difference between fundamentalist christianity and fundamentalist islam. Like I said, different books, same attitudes. Even the goals are almost identical.

If you read the Bible, and look at the audiences that Teyose was talking to, you will find that He is accepting and kind towards the poor and the "common people" (sinners), and often very harsh towards the religious authorities and elites. He accepted society's rejects. He didn't rant and rail at them about their sins. He didn't condemn them, and especially did not indicate ANYWHERE that He wanted them to go to hell.

That is the exact opposite of what your behavior has been.

Bob,

I suppose that many people accept homosexuality, but God does not. My view of homosexuality is only valid if it is the same as what the Bible teaches; and it is!

Your phony devotion to Jesus is revealed by your unbelief and your rejection of God's commands!
I know for certain that you are an unbeliever because you have proved it over and over here with your unscriptural agruments. Your hypocritical claim to be a Christian is laughable. You don't even understand what a Christian is! You are spritually ignorant and a stiffnecked rebel against God! And the more you talk, the more you reveal your ignorance!

Phony devotion? What would you call true devotion- murdering (stoning) homosexuals and unbelievers? Driving everyone possible away from God? Hurting the innocent? Promoting usury and abusing the poor? It seems to me that I've read you supporting these very things in the past.

Boy, Gary, you sound more and more like the fundamentalist moslems every day! "My way or the Highway!" so to speak. "Convert or die!"

I understand what a Christian is- the term means "little anointed one" and a Christian is supposed to be a "little Christ". It means to be Christlike- and that does NOT mean being full of hatred and rejection.

Remember this scripture? For God so LOVED the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And this one? Judge not, lest ye be judged. For the Judgement you give is the judgment you shall receive!

And: If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

And: The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

And finally: By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Think about it.

Bob,

Nicely and concisely put. I am also reminded of the Wisdom of Solomon these days, Chapter 2 in particular. Although in this chapter non-believers are referred to, when you look at what they embrace it is eerily similar to the way many conservative christians view the world. They do not discourage wealth-hoarding or extravagant lifestyles, they mock the poor, they believe in "might makes right", and they test those true Children of God who disagree with them with taunts and insults, just as The Wisdom of Solomon talks about....so that we may conjecture that in fact these neocon "christians" indeed may NOT be believers, at least not believers in the actuality of Jesus of Nazareth or his instructions, and in denying these are as damned as unbelievers, for it is in The Redeemer, The Incarnate Word of God, Jesus Christ ALONE that one must believe, or else one calling her/himself a Christian might as well be a non-believer. It is an interesting thought, and I recommend a complete reading of WOS 2.

Peace and Blessings.

Brother Damien

Hensci, Brother Damien!!!

It's been a while since I've seen your name pop up. I appreciate the tip, and I'll spend some time (when it comes available) reading that book again!

It is my opinion that TRUE Christianity requires wisdom- Godly wisdom. I once said to a friend that it is easy to follow a set of rules and regulations (i.e. "the Bible says so"), but it is much harder (infinately harder, actually) to try to live according to what I call "the Law of Love". It requires trying to seek wisdom and understanding, so as to find the best for everyone.

It is also (in my opinion) the form of TRUE Christianity.

It requires Grace, because we all fail at it!

That is why this topic is aggrivating, in a way. Those who follow the "rules and regulations" have demonstrated that they tend towards hatred and judgmentalism. I read the testimonies of homosexually oriented Christians, and I see both the pain of rejection and the Love of God being made manifest. I've learned that many of the stereotypes that come from the religious right (and have so for decades) are largely incorrect- starting with the stereotypes about the poor, the homeless, different ethnicities- and ending up with homosexuals.

Shoot, if anthropologists, many of whom study gender issues, don't really understand it fully, how can someone who just goes on "what the Bible says" begin to comprehend what they're talking about?

What I've heard the religious right claim does not match up to reality at all!!!

I totally agree with JP on his last statement- I also see what is going on as a struggle against civil rights and equality. If the religious right can win on this topic, what will be next- eliminating equal rights for women? Returning to slavery? Genocidal attempts against my people?

It has been my observation over the years that those who hate homosexuals also tend towards hatred for minorities as well.

Thanks for the kind words!

Bob

The problem is God. If only God has not said that homosexuality is a sin. Then, homosexuals could legitimately be considered moral and you would not have to pretend they are.

And, if God had not defined marriage as the union of a man and a woman, then there would be no reason to limit marriages that way.

I imagine it is frustrating to be a progressive and know God does not share your "values".

God is a problem.....

Thanks for the laugh, Gary! That's certainly getting things bass ackwards, isn't it!!!

(I refer to it as hoof in mouth disease- and I don't like the taste: I've had it enough! We all do it!)

By the way, I don't think God would consider hatred and rejection "values", no matter who they are directed at. I DO KNOW that trying to show God's Love and kindness towards others IS something God considers a value.

You have heard that it was said, '(C)YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR (D)and hate your enemy.'

44"But I say to you, (E)LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, and pray for those who persecute you,

Jesus own words!!!

(Emphasis added to verse 44)

P.S. I'm pretty sure our Creator is chuckling as well!