Who Says the Rapture can't be Funny?

Ha! A flaming meterorite. It might be worth it, just so that for one moment we could put down our guns and realize we're all in this together.

The second coming is kinda like Bigfoot. If you can't find one, believers can always claim that you're just looking in the wrong spot.

The second coming is nothing but a legend. It hasn't happened and never will. At least not in the way the Bible describes. But believers in it can always claim that it just hasn't happened "yet". Maybe they'll keep claiming that until the sun turns into a red giant and swallows up the earth in another 5 billion years. Then they'll say "I told you so!"

Greg

To say that the 'rapture' isn't but a legend is to recognize that biblical literalism with its only posture, premillenarianism, is a hoax to all except that ilk & of course Tim LaHaye et al. for whom it is a fraudulent, money-making scheme. Too bad they aren't "left behind" the quicker & their cheap hucksterism the more. Is there any worse sin than bilking the uninformed illiterates who people his followers? The U.S. is a fraudulent land, especially religious fraud.

So what do you guys think is really going to happen?

No words, spoken by any man, could have been more clear than the words of Jesus, declaring the coming of the hour when "all" who are in the graves will hear His voice, "and come forth". And "all who are in the graves" were divided into only two groups--the just, who will be raised to eternal life, and the unjust, who will be raised to eternal damnation. That's the deal. The prophets, Jesus, and the apostles preached the future coming of that 'literal' event.
It is a shame, that for whatever the motive, LaHaye and other dispensationalists have conjured up stories and fables, palatable to the emotions of (at best) the Scripturally illiterate. And by so-doing, they have fueled the fires the scoffers... But nevertheless, as was prophesied, those scoffers who shriek, "Where is the promise of His coming?.. Everything remains as it always has been!" will, as quickly as a thief comes in the night, change their tune.
Yes, there will be a resurrection of the dead... And there will be a "rapture"--a catching away of the remnant of believers, who remain living on this earth at the time of that resurrection. Yet despite LaHaye's hopeful, but utterly false predictions, those 'left behind' will not be crying out prayers of repentance--they will be crying for 'the rocks and the mountains to fall on them, and hide them from the face of the One who sits on the throne, and from the Lamb--for the Day of His wrath will have come, and not one 'left behind' soul will survive'.
Scoff if you must. But at least show enough consistency to trash the whole Bible and quit picking out little verses you can twist out of context ('to your own destruction'), and then accuse Bible believers of being the "cherry pickers".
Finally, in keeping with the 'thread'... Warning people of God's judgment cannot be equated with "passing judgment". The latter is forbidden, but the former, we are commanded to do, lest the soul of the sinner be required at our hands.
The only reason Paul could say his hands were free from the blood of all men, is because he did not fail to preach the gospel, replete with warnings of the pending wrath of the One who will 'judge the quick and the dead'.

If the "left behind" concept was only true!

I'd love to get "left behind!" And rid ourselves of all the fundamental, self-righteous haters that poison our world. So that the rest of us can evolve into the loving, inclusive, and beautiful society we've always dreamed of.

PLEASE, go on your way and live eternally with your wrathful, jealous, quick-to-anger, judgmental God. Sounds like a blast!

Wow Greg, I'm not sure how that kind of vitriol can evolve into a loving, inclusive and beautiful society.

When is this going to happen?

Revelation 6 Its time for fun and games; just where are we
The Seals
1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest. I think the rider of the white horse is Jesus Christ
3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people slay each other. To him was given a large sword. And I think that we are under the second seal; but will be under the third seal soon.
5 When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "Two pounds [a] of wheat for a day's wages, [b] and six pounds [c] of barley for a day's wages, [d] and do not damage the oil and the wine!"
7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants and brothers and sisters were killed just as they had been.
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us [e] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their [f] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?"

Bryan-

Sarcastic maybe but I wouldn't call it vitriol. Is it vitriol to want to evolve past the hateful, damning rhetoric pervasive in fundamental religion? Would you call it vitriol if I claimed exception to the policies of Hitler as well? My point is, I'm calling out the HATE, in whatever form and labelling it as such. The "I'm right you're wrong" speech in whatever form fuels division, strife and war in our world, and I'm tired of it. I mean literally tired. It's boring. Examples of acceptance, inclusion, and peace excites me. But that never seems to make headlines either... :)

But I would agree with you about the vitriol describing God. And will point out that the words I chose are pulled directly from the Bible itself. Jealous, wrathful, quick to anger...

To even suppose that anyone has it all figured out in a logical sense is merely the mind's wishful thinking. Are minds just work that way. They are like computers. It's either on or it's off. Black or white. Everything is relative to something else. But that's just the limits of our mind. Who's to say there isn't more?

I've heard it said that "the mind is a wonderful servant but a deplorable master."

We as humans will never "know" God as a series of equations. It's beyond logic. It's beyond our minds. It's something much deeper. I seem to remember the Bible even saying that God surpasses all understanding. Yet we argue endlessly to try and define and understand God. Put him in a box. But God can't be summed up in one simple sentence. Or proven through one book. Or one man's experience. Or one story. Or even one thought.

That's why "accepting Jesus as my personal saviour" has never meant much to me. On it's own, it's just a thought. Without the personal relationship with God, it's just a bunch of words. A history lesson.

Jesus was a signpost for us to get to feel God in our lives. Yet, so many seem to stop and worship the sign post. I'm reminded of the old practice that actors used to employ: learn your lines so well that you forget them. That's what the story in the Bible is for me. A way to get us pointed in the right dierection so we can make the final step ourselves. The step that no one can take for us. The step that cannot be taught in a book, or shown in a movie, or forced upon us through legislation. The step that bridges us with God.

So although I don't adgere to one hsotrical story over another, I do feel the presence of God's in my life. And it is that feeling that I think I share with most of you here.

G

Bryan... what do you think would be more important- trying to know what is going to happen, and caring about other people?

The whole focus of fundamentalism is WRONG.

Even Teyose himself said that He didn't know when He would return. If HE didn't know, how on earth do people think they could know?

I recently read where the US fundamentalist churches used to call the Kaiser of WWI the antichrist and were expecting Jesus anytime. I forget who or what it was before that- but every since fundamentalism reared its ugly head, people have been seeking signs.

I'd rather not know- and be found caring for others.

I guess I don't really understand why you would bother with Jesus if you think he's merely a signpost, Greg. The Bible says he is God. If that isn't true, I would suggest that Jesus take a long walk on a short pier.

I don't believe that looking forward to Jesus return and living our lives as we should now are incompatible. In fact, they are inseperable.

As far as evolving, I wouldn't be too optimistic.

My whole take on the Apocalypse/Armageddon or whatever is this.
If it comes tomorrow or a thousand years from now, it will get here in Gods good time not ours. When it does, I will stand before God and give an accounting of my life and works. Hopefully it will be good enough to allow me to join with my parents and grandparents in the arms of God. But today calls and today is what matters right now. Tomorrow waits in the wings and Yesterday has already left.

Bryan-

I think your response kinda says it all. "why you would bother with Jesus if you think he's merely a signpost."

This is so sad in my eyes. The fact that you can't see the intrinsic value of Jesus loving message. Regardless of who he claims to be, this message of Love rings true to me on such a deep level. How could I NOT "bother" with it?

Would you also ask Martin Luther King and Mother Theresa to walk off a pier?

Am I to assume you would walk out of a movie if a poignant scene made you well up?

Would you avert your eyes from a sunset if you suddenly became overwhelmed by it's beauty?

It's all Love. In different forms. Would you turn your back on those things too? I hope not, becuase that's God talking to us. God's language is Love.

No wonder it crosses all cultures and time. We sings about it in songs, we write about in it books, make movies about it, it's even at the core of every religion in the world. All you need is love. Love makes the world go round. It is at once unexplainable, yet endlessly fascinating. Everyone knows what it is, but can't really define it. Kinda like God, huh? But that makes sense, after all, God is Love.

If and when I follow Jesus, it's because of the LOVE. I don't necessarily believe that Jesus is the only son of God, unlike most (if not all) the people here. But I come here because I share the common goal of removing the hateful rhetoric that pervades fundamentalism and therefore, our culture. And the kind people here are not only great wtinesses but seem to make a place for me to share. Just as I make a place to listen.

So my question to you is, if you're not a Christian because of the inherent loving message found in it: Why are you? And please don't just rattle off a history lesson here. I already know all that. I want to know why you, personally are a Christian, if not for Jesus loving message?

This is difficult in a blog because I can't really convey my tone of voice in writing, but just imagine this being said with joy and enthusiasm.

I am a Christian in grateful response to God's love. A love so great, that even though he knew I would be constantly breaking his heart in my sin, that he would offer his only Son as a sacrifice, to suffer the punishment. that I deserve. God is righteous and just and knew a price had to be paid for our wickedness. Jesus has paid that price and I ask for my forgiveness knowing that I am forgiven.

It's that simple.

(Greg, now I have tears in my eyes.)

In response to this gift, I give him all that I am and all that he created me to be . . . my heart, my soul, and my mind.

I believe Jesus is God. There is no other. If Jesus is not who he said he was, then he is a liar and not worthy of being loved..

God is not love. Love is a wonderful attribute of God. Jesus has saved me from the wrath of God which is as certain as God's love.

I can never earn Gods' love, but oh, how I rejoice that he insisted on giving it to me!

That's it. I could go on but I'm a very slow typist. Hope that answers your question, Greg.

Greg,
You 8/1 post was great!
I wonder why so many people that call themselves 'Christians' have such a hard time using the God given mind and reasoning capacity to do nothing but attack and ridicule. I call myself a 'Disciple', not a Christian. Now that will be blasphemous to many 'christians', but I can no longer claim the designation because of the hateful rhetoric and damning beliefs placed by man under it's banner.

I agree with your statement:

"So many seem to just worship the signpost".

You are so right my brother...so right.

Peace be with you!

-Ray

"The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1 John 4:8

"God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him." 1 John 4:16

The Bible itself said it.

Bob! Thanks for those scriptures!

I just had someone...a Christian...send me an email with this litany of items supporting Israel and condemning the Arab world.

I was searching for some scripture to respond with...I ended up referencing 1 Corinthians 13, but those two really sum it up don't they?!

It is a pity that we all (and I do mean all of us)...cannot live by the golden rule...love thy neighbor as thy self; do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I think about too...the Lord's Prayer. We disected it once at a men's conference. Especially the section: 'and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.' Aren't we really saying?...'don't forgive us unless we can forgive others.'

Duh!!! Wow!!! Imagine that! Jesus is talking about and asking us to pray only for forgiveness of sins we commit if and only when we can forgive others for their sins against us! Incredible!

Think about it this Sunday or whenever you pray it...remembering that Jesus told the Disciples that was how they were to pray.

Pray for peace!
-Ray

Right on Ray!
And thanks Bob for those quotes regarding God is Love. Bryan, if you're basing your definition of God on the Bible you may need to rethink your earlier statement "God is not love."

Bryan thanks for sharing your experience.

It's funny, more than the story you shared as told to you through the Bible, I was moved by this simple statement:
"Greg, now I have tears in my eyes."

And THAT is what I'm talking about. It's that deep inner feeling of Love that overwhelms you that I was talking about. The story may have helped get you there, but it's that deeper beautiful feeling that is God's actual presence. That is the Final Step I was talking about earlier.

Would you believe it if I told you that I've had that same feeling? But here's the kicker: I don't get it from following just the Bible, but from many sources. Now I know the Bible claims that it is the only path to God. But, I guess to put it plainly: I don't buy it. For several reasons:

1. To claim its own authority proves nothing since it is circular logic.

2. Other world religions claim that THEY are the only path to God, each negating the other.

3. The people who wrote, assembled, edited, transcribed, translated, re-translated, and canonized the Bible over thousands of years were not perfect and had their own agendas, which of course included controlling the populace. And what better way to do that than to be sure that everyone adhered strictly to the same religion by threatening eternal pain and misery if you chose a different path (not to mention execution at times).

4. The world at large is all singing the same tune: Love.

5. But most importantly, the reason i don't think the Bible is the only path to God: Because I've done it. I know God without the Bible (and also with it at times.)

I understand that Jesus has been the path for you to this Loving feeling. But who's to say there aren't other paths? I think part of the reason people stick so vehemently to their beliefs is because it's those beliefs that led them to know Agape Love for the first time. And once we find it, we're completely overcome by it and want to share our journey with others. And that's a wonderful thing.

I think the only mistake, is when we assume that the way we came to know Love (God), is the only way to do it. It's kind of like climbing to the top of a mountain and then looking back at your path and telling everyone else how to get to the top. As helpful as that is to some, there are others who stand at the top with you, but have taken a different route. Maybe more direct, maybe not. But there they are. With you. With God.

And you both tear up. And let God in.

Maybe they tell a different story about how they got to the top. Different names, places, and events, but that's all history now. Literally. Just a chronological series of events that our brain rattles off. As helpful as it was to get us to the top, it's not the top itself.

God is not the story. God is where the story ENDS.

So I guess in the end, when I see so many people, of so many cultures, in so many places all rallying around this intangible, yet omnipotent thing we call Love, I can't help but take notice. I can't help but think that Love really is God. And that we're really all saying the same thing.

Now, I know you're knee-jerk reaction is to probably say that I've been duped by the Devil. As you've been taught to think. Just as the Muslim has been taught to think of you. But since when does the Devil speak the language of Love, and only Love? Maybe you think that is his ploy to trick me into following him. But to what end? So I can love my neighbor as myself. Love my wife. Give to the poor. Help my brothers. And do unto others my whole life?

I gotta say, if the Devil is trying to do evil works through me, then he's failing miserably. Maybe in the end, when I die you'll be right. That is, I will have followed Love in whatever form I see it throughout my whole life, and spread Love to others my whole life, only to find that it was the Devil behind this unending Love all along.

Then I say, so be it.

If God sends me to eternal torment and pain because I followed Love my whole life, then God really isn't Love. God essentially becomes the opposite of Love: Fear. And I don't think I'd want to spend eternity in Fear.

Greg

Greg, I think that there may be another way to look at it...

Jesus opened the door. We can only enter God's presence through the door (Him)... however, people enter the presence of God without being a "Bible pounder". Some people have known God before they knew Jesus. So... the door is open to anyone who will enter... and only man has put rules for entry.

I think that there are going to be a LOT of people in heaven who wouldn't have expected to get there, and people who expected to go there who were turned away.

I say that I follow the Law of Love... it is far harder than following the Bible (as a set of rules and regulations). It means self-examination, reflection, lots of thought, and lots of prayer. It means trying to become Christ-like- not an imitation of Christ but trying to be like Teyose.

Cool Bob.
I agree, living a loving life is alot harder than blindly adhering to a set of rules out of obligation or fear. You don't have someone telling you what to think at every turn. You have to be an active participant in your relationship with God.

I'll admit, sometimes I'd love a literal definition of God/Love that put everything in neat order to put my mind at ease. But God is not so easily defined. I find that in order to be in union with God, I have to hold my thoughts about it very loosely. God is only a vague idea in my head, but a much purer experience in my heart.

And just for the record, unfortunately for myself (and those around me to a degree) am by no means always loving. :) But when I am, life is better.

Greg

Isn't it amazing that limited, finite creatures like us can have a relationship with an Infinate God???

There is an article about a 1000 year old psalter found in Ireland. The psalter was open to Psalm 83... which sent last days people into a tizzy, because in the KJV, psalm 83 talks about the destruction of Israel.

Problem is, the KJV (and newer bible versions) number the psalms differently, and it is not the same psalm.

They actually had to have a news announcement about the different versions so as to get certain types to calm down.

A link to the article in National Geographic: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/07/060727-book-psalms.html

Just a couple of thoughts here. I don't quite understand why you would quote from the Bible if you think the Bible is not the truth?

And again, I would contend that if Jesus wasn't who he said he was, then he was a liar or nuts.

There is a huge difference between saying that the Bible is not the truth and saying that the Bible is without error.

Correction- There is a huge difference between saying that the Bible is not the truth and that the Bible is NOT without error.

So how do you decide what is and what is not the truth?

Research. Study. Analysis. Comparison of the scriptures to known facts (historical and archaeological for instance). Examination of the history of the Bible, how it came to be, and so on.

Others here on this sig could talk more about the theological end of the spectrum.

I focus (because I am an archaeologist and anthropologist) on things like historicity, cultural norms and variations, and things like that.

Good reasons Bob, and I'd add one more way to 'decide' what is truth and what is not:

My feelings.

I've got a great read recommendation for you guys, "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. A terrific book!

Thanks and I've got a great book for you:
"If Grace Is True: Why God Will Save Every Person"
by two Christian ministers.

My favorites are the Joshua series. I had someone "push" the "piercing the darkness" series on me, and I found the Joshua series to be the prefect antidote to the "piercing" poison.