The Clergy Letter Project

What a fantastic idea and it's such a well-written letter. I was glad to see that my parish's priest has signed. Thanks, Mother Sue!

Hello Michael:

Great to see this important project get the attention it deserves. Keep up the outstanding work!

FP

To anyone who thinks it's not important to get as many clergy as possible to sign this letter, please go to the site below and read what the self-proclaimed "Christian right" has planned for this country.

www.truthout.org/docs_2005/091105X.shtml

I was happy to add my signature to this letter. However, I recognize that the word "evolution" has many different meanings, some of which (notably the version advocated by renowned atheist Richard Dawkins) I cannot defend, and I do not believe compatible with the Christian faith.

In addition to that, the second figurative "asterisk" beside my signature is that I do not endorse the notion that intelligent design is a form of creationism...unless you use a very broad definition of "creationism." I hope that this will not be one of the uses to which the letter is put. I notice that Dr. Ted Peters, an esteemed professor at one of our Lutheran seminaries, has also signed the letter. Yet his endorsement may also be found in a recent book authored by "intelligent designer" William Dembski. The book is "The Design Revolution," and in it, Dr. Peters is quoted as saying, "I find William Dembski's writing and argumentation on behalf of intelligent design to be careful, erudite, thorough and a formidable challenge to the theistic evolution camp I normally defend." I'm sure Dr. Peters could not have written those words about a "creationist" manifesto, as "creationism" is ordinarily understood.

I wish we could find a way to tone down the rhetoric as we explore the issues. I do not believe that considering intelligent design (ID) will hasten the end of civilization as we know it. I find the ID authors (e.g., Dembski, Behe, Gonzalez) to be articulate, scientifically knowledgeable, and, well, intelligent. Calling them "creationists" seems to be a tactic. It confuses far more than it enlightens.

As I said, I was happy to sign the letter. I certainly do not consider myself to be a creationist. I just hope that the letter will not have a spin placed on it with which its signers would not be able to agree.

It's not that the word "evolution" itself has multiple meanings. It's that people make different meaning of the scientific fact of evolution. One of the challenges is that those meanings, whether they be "evolution shows that there is no creator" or "evolution shows the glory of the creator" are religious, and not scientific. (I know Richard Dawkins would vehemently disagree, but so what?)

The theory of intelligent design necessarily implies an intelligent designer, doesn't it? I find this notion no more logical than the long-disproven argument of First Causes/Prime Mover that was once thought to be proof of God's existence. The two are so similar. Let's think for a moment about the folks who are advocating I.D. -- members of the religious right, not biologists, chemists and physicists.

Just because current science does not have the tools or knowledge to understand how or why an organism evolved in a certain way is no reason to say, "It must have been the work of an Intelligent Designer." Instead, science should work to fill in those knowlege gaps.

I have always found this debate to be....well, silly (in the extreme). Are people actually so dense that they cannot grasp the concept that God creates THROUGH the evolutionary process? It always seems to boil down to an attempt by human beings to put God into a box, to define God, to be able to know absolutely what type of car She drives, and what brand of undergarments She wears. It is such idiocy! Excuse me, and I don't mean to offend, but this is where a great deal of the division between denominations AND between the different religions arise. Clearly God manifests Herself in many different Faith traditions, and in many different ways througout creation. It is my personal pet theory that one day, when we finally make contact with other higher-evolutionaries from other star systems, that we will find out that The Master, Our Lord Jesus Christ, actually incarnated into the physical forms of a myriad races spread throughout the cosmos, so that all of these other civilizations will have been visited by The Christ. Of course, before we ever get to that point, we have to get our own house in order, and accept certain very basic things like the fact that there is NO contradiction between logical, rational thought, between the scientific approach and religion. God gave us the ability to reason and to explore the mysteries of both outer and inner space. Let's use those gifts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brother Damien, OCCA

When I think of Creationaism and even intelligent design, I can't help but think about a few facts that noone can refute.

1. Why do we have actual bones of creatures and homonid species dating back eons ago? There are no mention of these. The bones of early man most definitely show evolutionary process. And God is great to be able to set up nature so that these things happen.

2. If God made Adam and Eve and all peoples sprang forth from them, why do we have different races if no evolution ocurred. Would we not all be one race? For instance, if you took two beagles and kept breeding them together and kept breeding their offspring, then you would have nothing but beagles...right?

Unless there was some form of evolution, there would be no separate races. Again...this does not disprove that God created all...I definitely believe that he/she did, but let nature take its course.

When I think of evoultion and even intelligent design, I can't help but think about a few facts that noone can refute.

[1] Thus, Darwin conceded that, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down." [2] Such a complex organ would be known as an "irreducibly complex system". An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If even one part is missing, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral. [3] Thus, such a system could not have evolved slowly, piece by piece. The common mousetrap is an everyday non-biological example of irreducible complexity. It is composed of five basic parts: a catch (to hold the bait), a powerful spring, a thin rod called "the hammer," a holding bar to secure the hammer in place, and a platform to mount the trap. If any one of these parts is missing, the mechanism will not work. Each individual part is integral. The mousetrap is irreducibly complex. [4]

Darwin's Theory of Evolution - The Premise
Darwin's Theory of Evolution is the widely held notion that all life is related and has descended from a common ancestor: the birds and the bananas, the fishes and the flowers -- all related. Darwin's general theory presumes the development of life from non-life and stresses a purely naturalistic (undirected) "descent with modification". That is, complex creatures evolve from more simplistic ancestors naturally over time. In a nutshell, as random genetic mutations occur within an organism's genetic code, the beneficial mutations are preserved because they aid survival -- a process known as "natural selection." These beneficial mutations are passed on to the next generation. Over time, beneficial mutations accumulate and the result is an entirely different organism (not just a variation of the original, but an entirely different creature).

Darwin's Theory of Evolution - Natural Selection
While Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a relatively young archetype, the evolutionary worldview itself is as old as antiquity. Ancient Greek philosophers such as Anaximander postulated the development of life from non-life and the evolutionary descent of man from animal. Charles Darwin simply brought something new to the old philosophy -- a plausible mechanism called "natural selection." Natural selection acts to preserve and accumulate minor advantageous genetic mutations. Suppose a member of a species developed a functional advantage (it grew wings and learned to fly). Its offspring would inherit that advantage and pass it on to their offspring. The inferior (disadvantaged) members of the same species would gradually die out, leaving only the superior (advantaged) members of the species. Natural selection is the preservation of a functional advantage that enables a species to compete better in the wild. Natural selection is the naturalistic equivalent to domestic breeding. Over the centuries, human breeders have produced dramatic changes in domestic animal populations by selecting individuals to breed. Breeders eliminate undesirable traits gradually over time. Similarly, natural selection eliminates inferior species gradually over time.

Darwin's Theory of Evolution - Slowly But Surely...
Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a slow gradual process. Darwin wrote, "…Natural selection acts only by taking advantage of slight successive variations; she can never take a great and sudden leap, but must advance by short and sure, though slow steps." [1] Thus, Darwin conceded that, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down." [2] Such a complex organ would be known as an "irreducibly complex system". An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If even one part is missing, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral. [3] Thus, such a system could not have evolved slowly, piece by piece. The common mousetrap is an everyday non-biological example of irreducible complexity. It is composed of five basic parts: a catch (to hold the bait), a powerful spring, a thin rod called "the hammer," a holding bar to secure the hammer in place, and a platform to mount the trap. If any one of these parts is missing, the mechanism will not work. Each individual part is integral. The mousetrap is irreducibly complex. [4]

Darwin's Theory of Evolution - A Theory In Crisis
Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a theory in crisis in light of the tremendous advances we've made in molecular biology, biochemistry and genetics over the past fifty years. We now know that there are in fact tens of thousands of irreducibly complex systems on the cellular level. Specified complexity pervades the microscopic biological world. Molecular biologist Michael Denton wrote, "Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 grams, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand million atoms, far more complicated than any machinery built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world." [5]

And we don't need a microscope to observe irreducible complexity. The eye, the ear and the heart are all examples of irreducible complexity, though they were not recognized as such in Darwin's day. Nevertheless, Darwin confessed, "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." [6]

http://www.allaboutscience.org/darwins-theory-of-evolution.htm < please see for your self,this is no quack site it is scientific site and has all darwins works ,ect.

Now my question is why are you holding on to out dated data this informatioin has been out for a long time

"Natural selection is the blindest, and most cruel way of evolving new species, and more and more complex and refined organisms...The struggle for life and elimination of the weakest is a horrible process, against which our whole modern ethics revolts...I am surprised that a Christian would defend the idea."

Brother Damian THIS IS HOW DISENGENOUS YOU ARE,you have the nerve to mention Darwin and Michel Denton in the same paragrapg,as if Denton did or supported something Darwin did or said...WHEN IN FACT MIGHEL DENTON DISPUTES DARWINS THEORY OF EVOULTION<NO HE BLOWS IT APART
BROTHER DAMIAN with your kind of tatic now that all have seen can see just who you are and why you are here,i would bet Damian your real name is Izik and you are a member of either aclu or DSA.It is obvious you have a agenda and you are intelectually DISHONEST,for you to even hint that Michel supports Darwin,by talking about his tiny bacteria. You Blew it BROTHER,How about Mother Sue and one of you other guys called Father someting or other,do you think we Christians are stupid,brother, mother, father,all on one link LOL.its so dumb its funny

And in you'r post you talk about cosmos and life on other planets,and Christ visiting other planets,i wonder Brother has he visited you home planet yet?,sorry my fradgulent friend,but a Brother by any other name is not a Brother

Christian Alliance no Christian thinks Christanity is or was a derdful Religon,that is eantacy on your part implying it as one would apply fly paper.If you think there are any Christians by that i mean praticing Christians not secular religoinist's that will accept ID as you have defined it you are wrong the only way Christians accept it is that all life EXECPT MAN has evolved,What you are trying to do is draw a wedge between Christians and their Bible it will not happen no matter how ,many shills you have write posts.The Bible in its entirity New and Old.
You claim Jesus taught from the Torah [Old Testament]but it was a man written book and very vengful and hate full,But being non Christians your self you fail to realize Jesus is God and why would God teach from a eronous book,why would God validate a book which the Jews claimed came from his very essence,did'nt he know he inspired that hateful book???i am sorry but you people have your ass hat on to tight.God or Jesus could not look on a book such as you say it is evil and hateful,non the less read from itJesus often talked of the torah with revernce in the NT.Jesus quoted to the sagucees from the Torah about the destruction of Sodom and Gammorah and told that it was destroyed for perversion now how do you square that
In any event it will not work this anti OT Bible scheme will not fly even though it is modled after that Gay Gene scheme you are to late perhaps if you put it out there around the same time as the Gay gene scam it may have worked.The Gay Gene scam was quiet brillent,it divided many unsuspecting people,even today after it has been disproved many still believe it,i guess its like that bell you cant unring.You see with all this P C many are afraid to challange many things afraid of being called a racist or bigot.
In addition Science is nothing but theory un proved theory when it comes to evolution,now that evolution was debunked by Michel Dawson you have run under the rock of I D.{WHERE ELSE COULD YOU HAVE GONE]?AT LEAST YOU CAN CLAIN YOU WERE NOT TOTALY WRONG at least I D .gives you a taste of evoulation.a thread to cling to untill you can regroup and go Godless again.
you say the bones we hav show evolution,do any bones show a link,a missing link??? Both Piltdown man and Judy have been discredited.Science shows no proof but the human foot prints along side Dinasauras in the river in Colorado does show proof.
For God to have Evloution go on for billions of years just to make man would be absurd and crule to boot,did he have nothing to do?Perhaps God made a bet and a race with another God,perhaps they bet to see who could produce a man first?in the least amount of time
This ID ia a absurd notion WHY <WHY would God do this,he knew just what would happen,so he just sat back and watched fir billions and billions of years?.
Things do evolve,animals mutate,animals evolve to a extent,however not to the extent of man comming from a ape bor a paramesian.
God would have insulted him self if that was the beswt he could do,to make things,animals,die because they were not fittest,to suffer,be killed,just to evolve in to man in the end and again WHY,if you could walk down to the conor store and buy milk why would walk around the world to go to the same store and get the same milk

My goodness, Joseph. The above is bad even for you. That's right...all we are trying to do is drive a wedge between you and your bible. How did you know? You're on to us. (dripping with sarcasm)

So now animals evolved, but not man. Hmmmm. How could that be I wonder? Are there not different races? If we all came form Adam and Eve, would there not be just one race? Or is it conceivalbe that man evolved due to certain envirnmental conditions which made it necessary for him to evolve. Face it...evolution did occur, but only because God made that possible. Have you not seen the bones from our early ancestors which walked this planet long before the written passages of the bible?

You say:

"This ID ia a absurd notion WHY <WHY would God do this,he knew just what would happen,so he just sat back and watched fir billions and billions of years?."

Why is this inconceivable to you. God is omni-present. There is scientific proof that other galaxies have been around far longer than earth. God will be around allot longer than you and I...and yes he will still be watching as we evolve even further. Just in the last couple thousand years are craniums have gotten larger to accomodate a larger brain. That's evolution in a relatively quick period of time. We have become less hairy in that time as well, because quite frankly, we do not need it anymore....that's evolution. So go ahead and put on your blinders, Joe. It's ok....but be careful about your eyes, when people don't use certain parts of their body...evolution eliminates it....for instance that tail that you are sitting on right now....or what used to be a tail, I should say...LOL.

Oh...and to build on your argument

"This ID ia a absurd notion WHY <WHY would God do this,he knew just what would happen,so he just sat back and watched fir billions and billions of years?."

If he knew what was going to happen anyway..... why even bother let us live in the first place and wait all these billions of years? Do you think God cares about time? Do you think he is sitting and twiddling thumbs the way we lament waiting in the drive-thru line. you have taken human impatience and applied to our GOD. That is a sad revelation, Joe.

By this statement you are acknowledging that the earth has been around for billions of years. that would imply that Adam and Eve were created at this time as well. What has happened to all the writings and the history between Adam and Eve and the more recent writings which begin a few thousand years ago? With the amount of advancement that we have had over the last 2000 years, What did we do for the first 4 billion years? There are bones which have been found which belonged to creatures millions of years ago. Why have we not found one piece of human remains that resemble us now. Remember, we have not evolved according to your beliefs....so therefore we should have looked the same back then.

Here is what I am suggesting. God created the earth and gave it life. Eventually we evolved into beings that could grasp the idea of a higher power and he blessed us with his teachings and eventually his only son, Jesus Christ. What is so evil about that?

I believe that the OT was written by man that interpreted God's teachings. The teachings are sound, but that in order to make man capable of grasping the concept that we were created by God, that certain artistic priveleges were taken to explain this. God still created man, God still has high hopes that we follow him and worship him...God still sent his only son, and one day that son will return. To suggest that man evolved does not suggest that life was not given to us by God. The only thing it does is raise the question as to wether or not the bible is to be taken literally when early man who wrote the beginning chapters still had no idea why the son rose in the East and set in the West. Remember Noah....I do not believe that the entire earth was flooded. Perhaps there was a large flood at that time...and perhaps Noah and his family made it out alive...but to suggest that every animal and insect was on board the ark at the time is incomprhensible. But if there were was truly a flood of that magnitude. Every living thing would have sprung from those aboard the ark. Which means again, that we would all be the same race from the same region. And the volution necessary to change everyone's races again is impossible.

Remember the church was still preaching that everything revolved around the earth until relatively recently. The church felt it blasphemous to suggest that the earth was not round.

I do not care to carry on with this discussion because you are going to believe what you want and I will believe what I want. I won't change your mind and you won't mine. CAll me Non-Christian if you prefer..call me a blasphemer, it matters not, for the only thing that matters to me is what my Lord and savior believes. And the fact that I believe that man evolved but was created by God will probably not matter much to God as long as I follow Jesus' teachings and try my darndest to live as he did. And when I fail as long as I seriously repent, I know that I will be given the gift of eternal happiness in heaven.

Joseph,

It's really sad to see people so committed to their dogma that they cannot consider that maybe their understanding of scriptural teaching needs to be adjusted in light of advances in scientific learning. Intelligent Design poses a plausible explanation of things evolutionary science cannot, but it is not science, it is faith. ID is not incompatible with evolution. It is entirely possible that everything was created by an "intelligent designer" (as a Christian, I believe this to be true), who brought creation to its current state through evolutionary processes. Since the existence of that designer cannot be tested or falsified, however, it is simply not science.

Joseph - Since the comments on this site seem to send you into apoplexy, I have a suggestion for you: Why don't you blog on sites that better reflect your thinking?

I really take offense at the way you lambast Brother Damien. His posts are always well-stated and thought provoking, not to mention SPELLED CORRECTLY!

kjm AND OTHERS ,,i CAN SEE WHY YOU IGN0RE THE POST ABOUT DARWIN,the above post which even Darwin said in his time,his theory breaks down if piticular paramaters are shown.

Thus, Darwin conceded that, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down." [2] Such a complex organ would be known as an "irreducibly complex system". An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If even one part is missing, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral. [3] Thus, such a system could not have evolved slowly, piece by piece. The common mousetrap is an everyday non-biological example of irreducible complexity

Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a theory in crisis in light of the tremendous advances we've made in molecular biology, biochemistry and genetics over the past fifty years. We now know that there are in fact tens of thousands of irreducibly complex systems on the cellular level. Specified complexity pervades the microscopic biological world. Molecular biologist Michael Denton wrote,
Can everyone say "good by Evolution"
you will need to eat alot of jellow to hang on much longer.

Joe..the reason people are not responding to your crap is because it is completely basis. You again demonstrate your ability to cut and paste a piece of work put together by the right wing neocons!! You pice together one little phrase and TADA...it's proof.

Did you not say earlier that animals evolved but people did not? Yes you did. Don't animals have complex organs.....YES.....CAse closed...you crushed your own argument. In fact we use animal organs in people before you say they are not as complex as ours.

To illustrate the fact that the right takes things out of context, let's look at the entire paragraph where you got your little gem.

"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find no such case. No doubt many organs exist of which we do not know the transitional grades, more especially if we look to much-isolated species, around which, according to the theory, there has been much extinction. (emphasis added)

So before you feel all triumphant Joe......read more than just quotes from your neoconic websites.

And obviously you don't read the other posts here, because you are getting so crushed by facts and not conjecture

Joseph,

First off, PLEASE take some grammar and spelling classes. I don't know where you went to school, or are going to school, but they haven't done right by you, not by a longshot. I admire your convictions, but they would be much better represented with coherent sentences.

Secondly, have you ever actually READ Origin of the Species? If you had, you would be aware that Charles Darwin HIMSELF referred to God in the next to last paragraph of his concluding statement, referring to "what we know of matter impressed on it by the Creator". Charles Darwin DID have a faith in God, but he was unwilling to be so narrow-minded as to try to exactly define God. In other words, he was humble enough to admit that he didn't understand the mind of God. He even studied to be a MINISTER at one point in his life, but decided to instead pursue his love of the sciences. Once again, there is no contradiction between his Theory of Evolution and God's Creation, for God may very well create through the evolutionary process. We do not know exactly HOW God creates, only that He does. Some people with lower IQs do tend to get confused on this issue, and tend to be the same ones who think that God's Creation of the world and all life on it took place in a span of six literal 24 hour days, or that God created just Adam and Eve (hey, where did those wives for Cain and Abel come from?),or that Man is created in the physical as well as spiritual Image of God (wow, God has a physical form, and it's the form of a large, mostly hairless primate!). Man was created in the SPIRITUAL Image of God, given a Divine soul which mirrors that of Almighty God, but God could just as easily have put a Divine soul into one of the saurians, as the physical "form" is unimportant. THINK. That's what God gave you a brain for.

Lastly, in response to your last post to me, you do not EVER address a professed monastic in that tone. It is RUDE in the extreme. You have a right to your views, and I am more than willing to debate them with you, but you do NOT have the right to show disrespect to a monk or nun. Shame on you.

Peace and Blessings.

Brother Damien, OCCA

KJM no you are dead wrong,the reason i cut and paste is because i validate my contentions unlike you and your inuiendos,unsubstancuated,and flawed opinions,i say it and back up what i say...unlike you,as for talking points from the right.I had been a staunch DEMOCRAT as my Father And his Father and entire Family.My Father ownede his own Plumbing business for 35 years,He considered the De4mocratic Party the Working mans Party The Blue collar party.I had been a Democrat for 37 years i voted for Clinton his first term,and Campained for him,untill saw the Moral decay he brought this Country to,and i dont mean just his lying under oath,he nominated Ruth Bater Ginsberg,for Supreme Court Justice,Ginsberg believed then as now that Children should have a choice as to if they would like to have sex at the age of 12 AS NAMBLS agree's,and Prostitution should be leaglized,along with drugs and much more,she was the head of the ACLU for 7 years.Clinton brought about the decay of sociaty,insted of evertone becomming a American he led multiculturalism no more melting pot, embrace your ethnisity,embrase your culture,this only led to non patriotism,non Americanism,Insted of everyone becomming a American you have only pockets of people who care only about themselves,why would pockets with differnt beliefs about America, be pro America?,Islam wants to dominate us,they refuse to swear a oath to America they say they only swear a oath to Allah,the poor say the rest of America is racist.The NAACP have become so racist it is a reversal of the 1800s...almost.People call the President a Nazi,Amnsty International says we run a goulog ,People are thugish f the President F you f f f. this is what we hear.And my pet peve the Socialistic/Communistic left,which i posted,yes cut and pasted so there could be no mistake what they stood for,it was there site,and i cut and pasted 69 Congressmen ,Repesentives who support Socialism calling themselves Progressives Democrats,and detailing what they want to do to America,reform and restructure ecnomic's as well as Corporate.Today and because of Clinhton we have the Gay Agenda well entrenched in our Department of Education ie "heather has two mommy's first grade reading material mandatory in some schools.Look no matter what thinks of Gays they have no right forcing their agenda on mykids they can do what they want to behind their closed doors but do not have the right to force it.The hate crime for gays is absurd they were covered by the same law everyone is covered by,should we have a hate crime
laws for Jews,for Afican Americans?why should'et someone who says to a african American "i am going to kill you N" be charged with a hate crime.Gays suffered nothing compared to Jews and African Americans,"THANK YOU MR>CLINTON".The Porno,again mr.Clinton remember the cyber sex?,when i was younger it was called Perverson,and the purportrator a pervert ,now
he is called MR>PRESIDENT.Remember the use of Mr Clinton's fine Ciga ? and during the same years Larry Flint ran as a Democrat,he lost but supported Mr Clinton.I think my self no better than any one else ,however i see this Sociaty as a Cesspool,filthy sex on the net for kids to see,and its ok,the porn industry donates liberaly to the left might i add.lets see what else,oh stop the war on drugs,give murderers,rapists pedofiles,gang bangers back their right to vote,at the door when they are released,so they can vote immediatly if necessary That is Mr.Conyers bright idea soon to be brought before Congress,oh and let us see who would these fine people vote for,Oh i know the Republicans or the Independents Right???

Listen to these people carefully and you will hear what they are really saying.Cidny Sheean claims Bush is a murderer but her son is a hero,that would be saying that Hitler was a murderer but his SS who inlisted, were hero's'SS and thoes who pushed the Jews into the Gas chambers they were hearo's also ,she also said America has been killing inocent people for 200 years all over the world,she even pointed at WW2,now if it were really Bush she wanted to Dishonor why does she say America has been killing inocent people for 200 years,the Democrats were in charge for 40.WW2 was justified,we saved millions of lives in a just cause,listining carefully you will hear the shriek of a America that must be changed and capitalism ,Corporations,must go,redistribute the wealth,great new idea but i think it was tried...and failed.
KJM complex organs??? read the Darwin paper and what Michel Denton had to say, for that matter what Darwin had to say about his own Theory being undone if it was ever discovered that their was "irreducibly complex system
my dearest friend you are missing my,his point entirely:{An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If even one part is missing, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral,now my friend if you cut the arm off a man or pluck a eye from a man,does his face or his body fail to function...NO and this is what condems Darwins theory,AND Darwin conceded it would
Natural selection acts only by taking advantage of slight successive variations; she can never take a great and sudden leap, but must advance by short and sure, though slow steps." [1] Thus, Darwin conceded that, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."

An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If even one part is missing, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral. [3] Thus, such a system could not have evolved slowly, piece by piece.

Your head is a complex system remove one ear,or one eye,DOES THE SYSTEM FAIL??NO Case and point Darwins Theory fails thus the system{the head}could not evolved slowly piece by piece,and Darwin said his Theory was based on A COMPLEX SYSTEM EVOLVING SLOWLY PIECE BY PIECE
GET IT NOW??

And we don't need a microscope to observe irreducible complexity. The eye, the ear and the heart are all examples of irreducible complexity, though they were not recognized as such in Darwin's day. Nevertheless, Darwin confessed, "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."
Don't animals have complex organs.
KJM your above statement is far from point just because there is a complex system means nothing,Darwin Knew there were complex systems he was a scientist,he didnt say anything like you interperted perhaps my breaking it down and if you will take the time to read it correctly you may just get it

I hope i helped you understand what was being said here,I remember in the fourth grade,my teacher gave us a great book which helped me emensly at that time. The name of the book was "Reading Comprehension",after that book i got all A's you may want to pick up a copy

Dameian consider me rude then,you like others will not tell me what i can or can not say,political correctness is way over rated,alhough it is a good controll tatic,The Gays like you call names you called me rude,the gays would say i am a bigot,and a homophob,If i deo not support the left wing i am a right wing nut,if i believe as i do that the Quran says "Kill The Infidel Where Ever You Find Him" as it does i am called a Islamaphob.I totally refus to conform to your lefty wishes.And for you to reprimand me because you believe you are someone be given countance to.I gave all that up when all the Homosexual Priests made their entrance on to ABC news,and destroyed so many young lives.I was a Catholic once to,and it was not unlike being a Democrat.They were what they were but the cover up,not unlike the contrabuitons from Larry Flint,made me go else where

Damian i do not think ive heard you say Jesus is God manifist in the flesh,and believing Jesus came to earth for mans salvation,and if man follows his teachings and accepts him as a personal saviour that man will be saved,is that your belief Damian?AS jesus said "I and the Father are one"and "youcan not get to the Father But Through Me"and"when you have seen ME,you have also seen the Father"
Brother Can you please tell me why Jesus is referred to as a lamb???
Damian you must really be angry at thoes who call Bush {The President of The USA A murderer and a NAZI}as much respect as you have for professional people ie Monks ,residents .In addition you never have disputed my post about the Torah and its validity,being Jesus,GOD,taught from it,and called it the WORD OF GOD. and one last wrong i must right you said Jesus abolished stoning for Adultry...WRONG they still stoned Adulters,the thing you missed was Jesus stopped the Jews from stoning Marry,she said she believed in Jesus,he told her to go and sin no more,then he said to the Jews let he without sin cast the first stone,now why did he say that,?did he just make a arbtrary statement no,Marry became BornAgain when she accepted Jesus there fror she was without sin,so nHe asked them who of you are without sin,that is why they dropped their stones.Jesus did not change any Laws,he did not stop any injustice,He did not feed the world,he did not even feed all the poor in one town.and at that time the poor did not own their own home,own two cars,dvd stero $150.00 sneakers,play station,then the people were poor,NO FOOD,NONE,KUPUT,and even so Jesus did not feed them,why DAMIAN?is it not said around here Jesus was a Liberal?Did Jesus tell the people no to pay taxes[like Cindy Sheean is telling people not to pay taxes]or did he say render unto Cesar what is Cesar's and unto god what is God's
please respond insted of making a statement which may or not be relitive

Hey, everybody, how's this for an idea whose time has come: Let's ignore Joseph and maybe he'll go away. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm tired of his tirades, his incoherent writing and his deplorable manners.

While I agree that Joseph has every right to his opinions and the right to express them, (no matter how poorly), he does not have any right to an audience. From now on, I'm just going to ignore anything he writes and anything that looks like he wrote it under another name.

Brother Damian - I was so glad to see that you lit into Joseph over his disrespect for you.

Joseph.....as CAthie suggests I will respond to oyu no more, but that will occur after this, my last response to you.

Your whole was Darwinism thing was broken by Darwin himself with the rest of the quote that you seem to keep forgetting. And yes I did give the information that you claim I forgot. So here it is again Joseph your reading pleasure.

""If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find no such case. No doubt many organs exist of which we do not know the transitional grades, more especially if we look to much-isolated species, around which, according to the theory, there has been much extinction. (emphasis added)"

Why did you forget to put the last part in there Joseph? Is it because the rest of Darwin's quote debunks what you want to believe? That is why I say you do not read things for yourself and that all you do is grab on to an idea from the righty web sites and don't investigate it yourself.

I could care less that you were a registerd Democrat at one point, that does not make you any more right than someone saying they were a registered Republican and switched sides. Your entire contension is meaningless. Sure Clinton screwed up, but while Clinton sinned and harmed his family, Bush has undoubtedly sinned and harmed many more than just his family. CAn you not see that?!!

Your whole Hitler/ SS analogy is utterly ridiculous. To say that Bush went into a war illegally and based on lies is actually true, Joseph. Prove to me that it is wrong. I bet you can't. Her son went to Iraq doing what the president told him to do. While there I am sure he and the majority of the soldiers there did things within the limits of the rules of war. They fought another army and the insurgeny as well. THEY WERE NOT GASSING INNOCENT CIVILLIANS AND TRYING TO EXTERMINATE AN ENTIRE PEOPLE! See, that is where you and I differ. I actually look at an entire situation and consider it point by point. Whereas you and the righty minions throw out baseless convictions without any critical thought. So your entire analogy is bunk...simple as that.

I am going back to Darwin again. Have you read the entire Darwin paper, Joseph, or just the little talking points. You are so caught up in the one little phrase "irreducibly complex". You quote this and quote that. Back in 1859 when Darwin wrote this piece he was introducing something completely new and unique. He was the father of this new way of thinking. Now certainly there is the possibility that whenever something is in the begiining stages of development, it is possible that a few words might not pan out, but that the overall belief and contention of the author is valid and accurate. Take for instance the early pioneers of flight. They believed that flight was possible and they gave several bizarre theories behind their thoughts and they did not pan out. But because of these early pioneers, future engineers were able to improve upon the earlier work and indeed prove them correct. Their theory was correct but there method was not. Does this show that becuase their method or explanation was not right, that their theory is bunk as well.....NO!!!!!!! I could keep going with medical advancements, mechanical advancements, and the myriad of scientific advancements since 1859. The fact is that science has shown that Darwin's theory is correct.

I gave you several pointed questions in my earlier post and you chose not to answer them, Joe. This is telling, sir! You choose to ignore valid questions and keep repeating the neoconic talking points. It reminds me of a asmall child who does not widh to hear their parents, sticking their fingers in the ears and repeating, "Ican't hear you...I can't hear you". You are that child, Joe. Plugging your ears and not even considering the points of others. Don't be that child, Joe. Show me that you are actually capable of unique, critical thought. Take the fingers out of your ears and answer a few questions since you think you have it all together.

1. If no evolution ocurred, why aren't we all one race. Remember, there are 2 points in history, according to the bible, where mankind sprang up from one focal point...Adam/Eve and the time of the great flood.

2. After the great flood, how did Noah get all the different species to all the diffeerent places on Earth? We are talking billions of different plant, insect and animal species. How did he get them to the different remote and far off islands?

3. Above you claimed 2 things. One you say that animals evolved and that man did not. You later bring up the "irreducibly complex organ" thing. That contends that since organs are irreducibly complex then there is no evolution. Well, Joe, how is it that animals can evolve but humans cannot if animals also have organs not unlike humans? Your 2 points fly in the face of each other. Is it possible that you may be wrong on one of those points. For your reference, I include your exact quote.

"Things do evolve,animals mutate,animals evolve "

4. Above you contend that there are human footprints next to dinosaurs.
"Science shows no proof but the human foot prints along side Dinasauras in the river in Colorado does show proof."

I include a link to what you are probably referring to(see...I do actually look into what you claim.) The site is quite biased to your way of thinking before you get all bent out of shape. It has actual pictures of these "human foot prints" and they use this to debunk evoulution. In fact at one point they say that the prints were made just as the Noah flood waters were rising...LOL....how they know this I have no idea. That and in itself would imply that Noah would have had to have gotten 2 of every dinosaur onto the Ark. But back to my point. So we have "human foot prints" right next to dinoasaurs...meaning we have not evolved since the early cretacius period....100 million years ago. But when we look at the pictures the prints are so different than what we would expect today. In fact in the text it believes that the prints are from something that ways over 1000 pounds. Now if we have not evolved, as you claim Joe, and if we are the same as these creatures from 100 million years ago that laid these prints......why don't we have the same prints, Joe? Remember...this is your evidence...your proof that we have not evolved. How do you explain the differences in appearance, Joe? If your foot print looks the same as the ones in the picture, I will travel to you an publicly kiss the enormous foot that makes them, Joe. So your evidence proves my point.

Here are the links:

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/giants.htm

http://www.unmuseum.org/palx.htm

An interesting expose which reveals that the man who hyped the foot prints was found incmpetent as a researcher by the Creationsist Research Society.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/paluxy.htm

So, Joe....work on these questions. It will be extremely difficult not to debunk anymore of your ridiculous statements, half-truths, and outright lies. I am not guaranteeing that I will not reply to you, but I will do my best to hold my tongue. Without critically consdiering any of the information that is being provided to you, I doubt that any of my typing will do anything to change your mind just the same as NONE of your typing will change my mind, because I have already considerd your points and find them to be uninformed, dense, backward, and in many cases not in keeping with the idea WWJD.

I will no longer waste my time with the likes of you...to the extent that I am capable, cause Lord knows your junk really gets under my skin.

As CAthie, put it, we should all just ignore you. Because it seems that we are beginning to simply argue with you rather than intelligently discuss what we can do as progressives to affect the religious and political policies of today. To waste our time with you is counter-productive. So, post away. Have at it, but Cathie you can count me in. I am all for ignoring Joe, Tom and whoever else he wishes to be from here on out. BTW, Joe, It is so sad that you used three names...LOL You are a truly a sad, sad, little man. I pity you and will pray that one day you will experience enlightenment.

Cheers!

KJM - Thanks for supporting my effort to ignore Joseph. I'm sorry he gets under your skin, especially since that's exactly what he wants to do. We've all been devoting far too much time, attention and energy to Joseph instead of engaging in lively, interesting and CIVIL debates.

Like you, I'll be praying for Joseph and hoping that he'll take a crash course in grammar, spelling and punctuation. I'm not a hot-shot speller myself, so whenever I'm unsure of a word I want to use here, I type it into Word Perfect and run a spell check on it.

I sure hope Joseph hasn't run Brother Damian off. He nearly always brings insights that I would never have thought of to this forum.

KJM You are such a liar,what you posted alledging what Darwin said opposed to what i posted is a ball FACE LIE now there is no doubt that you are a schill here to dupe people in to believing your propaganda and i will challange you here and now give the site where you alledgelly got your information,i do not think you can and will make a excuse what you posted is a lie it does not say that ,you made that up,i will post the excerpt in its entirity and give the site so all can go and see what a left wing propagandist you are,perhaps my sentence constructure leaves something to be desired,but so does your ability to tell the truth
what i post begins before the quote and after there are no such words written as you suggest,what i post came directly from Darwins Quotes,now here is the deal if i am a liar and you can show that I miss quoted this paragraph and it says what you say it said,I will leave this blog and not come back,on the other hand if i show that you have lied,you must go,and not come back,this will not only show who is truthful but who has integerty.
Now the issue is,you say this is Darwins words

[ ""If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find no such case. No doubt many organs exist of which we do not know the transitional grades, more especially if we look to much-isolated species, around which, according to the theory, there has been much extinction. (emphasis added)"

And i say these are Darwins words

[Darwin's Theory of Evolution - Slowly But Surely...
Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a slow gradual process. Darwin wrote, "…Natural selection acts only by taking advantage of slight successive variations; she can never take a great and sudden leap, but must advance by short and sure, though slow steps." [1] Thus, Darwin conceded that, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down." [2] Such a complex organ would be known as an "irreducibly complex system". An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If even one part is missing, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral. [3] Thus, such a system could not have evolved slowly, piece by piece. The common mousetrap is an everyday non-biological example of irreducible complexity. It is composed of five basic parts: a catch (to hold the bait), a powerful spring, a thin rod called "the hammer," a holding bar to secure the hammer in place, and a platform to mount the trap. If any one of these parts is missing, the mechanism will not work. Each individual part is integral. The mousetrap is irreducibly complex. [4]

Darwin's Theory of Evolution - A Theory In Crisis
Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a theory in crisis in light of the tremendous advances we've made in molecular biology, biochemistry and genetics over the past fifty years. We now know that there are in fact tens of thousands of irreducibly complex systems on the cellular level. Specified complexity pervades the microscopic biological world. Molecular biologist Michael Denton wrote, "Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 grams, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand million atoms, far more complicated than any machinery built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world." [5]

And we don't need a microscope to observe irreducible complexity. The eye, the ear and the heart are all examples of irreducible complexity, though they were not recognized as such in Darwin's day. Nevertheless, Darwin confessed, "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." [6] ]
here is my proof

http://www.allaboutscience.org/darwins-theory-of-evolution.htm

It is time to put up or shut up and stop lieing to the people,if you in any way shape or form can not produce your bogas proof [which you cannot]all will know what and who you are,even though many here may not like me the will know you are a FRAUD!!!!.And i myself would much rather be one that types with one finger as i do ,and one that does not have great skills in grammer,as i do not,than be a disingenious leftie con man.
AND WILL ALL TAKE NOTICE IF KJM DOES NOT COME UP WITH A SITE WHERE HE ALLEDGLY GOT THIS INFORMATION WHICH HE SAID I LEFT OUT OF MY POST INTENTIONLLY AND STILL COMES TO THIS BLOG HE IS A MAN WITH NO INTEGERTY A CON MAN!
The only thing he can come up with is "the site is no longer up,Katrina knocked off line or perhaps MY DOG ATE IT "

KJM YOU LEFTWING ACLU LAWYERS,AND PROFESSIONAL SCHILL'S ARE NOT QUIET AS SMART AS YOU THINK YOU ARE,i AM WAITING WITH ANTISAPATION FOR A RESPONCE IT IS A FACT[AND I SAY THAT WITH ALL MY INTERERITY ON THE LINE]THAT YOU CAN NOT RESPOND THAT YOU CAN NOT SHOW THAT I LEFT OUT A BOGAS AND CRITICAL STATEMENT YOU ATRIBUTE TO DARWIN....GO ON NOW,GO AHEAD AND EMBARRAS YOUR SELF,
KJM JUST IN THE LANGUAGE THE WORDS COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE PARAGRAPH, ANY ONE CAN SEE WERE JUST ADDED,THEY DO NOT HAVE THE RYTHEM NOR THE INTEGERTY OF WHAT AND HOW DARWIN WROTE
I DO NOT THINK YOU WILL LEAVE THIS BLOG EVEN THOUGH YOU WILL BE PROVED A FRAUD YOU ARE NEEDED HERE TO TRASH OTHERS BELIEF'S,BUT I GAVE MY WORD EVEN TO A FRAUD...BALL'S IN YOU'R COURT,
THE ONLY THING THAT CAN BE DONE,IS TO BANN ME,HOWEVER IF YOU DO THAT EVERYONE WILL KNOW.
YOU LAWYERS ARE NOT ALL THAT INTELLIGENT ARE YOU NOW?

Last paragraph...in red first edition and sixth edition

http://www.origins.tv/darwin/eyes.htm

About midway down

http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/darwin/Darwin_VI.htm

That should just about do it. Goodbye Joseph.
You are not quoting Darwin. You are quoting someone who is putting together DArwin quotes. For you to say "these are Darwin's words" and the first sentence stars off with " Darwin wrote, " Shows these are not Darwin's words.

I give you the actual text where he makes the complex organ argument and you give me an author's impression of Darwin's words where they tie together different quotes to make you think what was written was one long cohesive paragraph.

Face it, Joe, you are the living the lie. I appeal to the moderators, in light of Joseph's promise and my evidence, that Joe be banned from the sight. Not because of his outright lies and not because of his beliefs but because he said this,

"now here is the deal if i am a liar and you can show that I miss quoted this paragraph and it says what you say it said,I will leave this blog and not come back"

Under the header, modes of transition

http://www.darwin-literature.com/The_Origin_of_Species/6.html

That should just about do it. Goodbye Joseph.
You are not quoting Darwin. You are quoting someone who is putting together DArwin quotes. For you to say "these are Darwin's words" and the first sentence stars off with " Darwin wrote, " Shows these are not Darwin's words. FAce it buddy. You say you are giving Darwin's theory and you are not.

Now....I am sure that what you are doing is trying to get me to respond one last time. But if it is possible to have a liar, fascist like you removed from the board, I will forego my promise. Now do the right thing and retract what you have said and leave like a good little neocon. You have been proven to be a liar and fabricator who believes his right wing agenda web sites more than actual fact.

I give you the actual text where he makes the complex organ argument and you give me an author's impression of Darwin's words where they tie together different quotes to make you think what was written was one long cohesive paragraph.

Face it, Joe, you are the living the lie. I appeal to the moderators, in light of Joseph's promise and my evidence, that Joe be banned from the sight. Not because of his outright lies and not because of his beliefs but because he said this,

"now here is the deal if i am a liar and you can show that I miss quoted this paragraph and it says what you say it said,I will leave this blog and not come back"

KJM - I sent you an email earlier this morning warning you about Joseph's most recent post. I had hoped I could talk you out of responding to him. As long as any of us keep replying to what Joseph writes, he's just going to keep it up to get the attention he craves. I doubt the blog's host will ban him, but I do truly believe Joseph will eventually find other pursuits once he realizes that he's being ignored here. Please, please try not to respond to him any more!

Cathie,

No I knew what he was trying to do, but I figured I would call him on his bluff and if he is a man of his word, he will no longer post here anymore.

I guess sometimes we have to let go some of our convictions if it brings about the greater good. I just saw this as an opportunity to eliminate this guy. And hopefully his word is better than his "facts".

Cathie and KJM,

Blessings to you, and bravo! You have the right idea concerning our recent neocon spelling-bee champion. The sad thing is, I have seen MUCH worse, as no doubt you have too. However, I think this is a perfect example of the kind of overall mentality we are fighting and WHY this clergy letter is important, and why it is important to start confronting all of the Josephs and Rushes and Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells.

I am something of a contradiction to many people, as those who know me will quickly attest. Devoted first and foremost to our God and King, Jesus Christ, Son and Word of the Living God, through my monastic profession, I am also a loud and proud advocate of social work and activism (as you may have guessed). Simultaneously being a strong proponent of logical, rational thought, and of the Scientific Method, I nonetheless believe (nay, am quite positive), as medieval as it may sound to my less religious-minded friends, that The Devil is very real, and very much at work in the world today; and one of his very favourite mediums of malevolence is the Christian Right. I'm sorry possums, call me an extremist in my thinking, but there it is.

I believe that The Devil is using those in the Far Right Christian movement to sow seeds of intolerance and greed, and to actively turn millions away from our Master. These people do not seem to "think" as much as they "react" from the baser, more primitive (and darker) side of the human psyche. And how The Devil must delight in orchestrating a movement that takes the teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ and twists them into a sick, perverted miasma of exclusiveness, greed, apathy, and bigotry, causing many in our world today to view THAT anti-matter version of Christianity as valid and representative of true Christian thought and teachings. The Devil is a clever farmer, and in the Christian Right movement he has found a fertile field of ignorance and selfishness to nurture his crop of evil.

All we can do is continue to oppose this kind of non-thinking, vitriolic (and bordering on fascist) mind-set. We have to stand up and say that this is NOT what Jesus taught in the gospels, and encourage people to actually READ what He did teach, and embrace not only His directive to do for The Least of These, but also to embrace what He said were the Two Great Commandments: To love God with all one's heart, mind, and soul....and EQUALLY to love one's neighbor as oneself". As Jesus said, on these two commandments, "hang ALL the Law and the Prophets too". Shalom.

Peace and Blessings.

Brother Damien, OCCA

Fantastic letter Michael. Although the comments got way of track, kinda like ID. Read the letter again folks, and, the definition of science. And, if you think this project is important and you have a website, got a great banner link that is simple/easy to insert. And freely pulling from my server. Check it all out at ClergyLetterProject.Net - William

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