The Ultimate Punishment

I am only reminded of the Apostle Paul, who said:

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established...[R]ulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong...For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
(From Romans 13:1-4)

The power of the sword includes the power to take life. I do now know if this was merely Paul's understanding of secular power (which exists when God lets it exist), or his understanding of how a Christian-informed government should work.

But it does appear to describe this case.

FP,

There is little doubt that people have been wrongly executed. As the availability of DNA evidence increases, scores of death row inmates have been exonerated by newly-developed testing techniques. Considering the percentage of convicts who have been exonerated, it is highly unlikely, as a purely statistical matter, that no innocent person has been executed.

All that being said, I am in some ways your mirror image on this issue. I used to be passionately opposed to capital punishment; I am still opposed, but it now takes a great deal of intellectual effort to remind myself why I am opposed. Perhaps it is just a function of getting older and having a family of my own, but I am now more sympathetic to the primal urge for retribution underlying the system of capital punishment.

On the other hand, there is not only the near-certainty that innocent people have been wrongly executed, but the undeniable impact of race and economics in determining who is sentenced to death and who is not. When I balance my empathy with the people who are impacted by a murder with the unfairness embedded in our system of meting out capital punishment, I still come down on the side of opposing it; but not with the same passion I did 10 or 15 years ago.

Well Randy, do you believe that the purpose of the criminal justice system is to punish or to reform offenders?

If it is to punish, then it makes perfect sense to kill people.

If it is to reform, then it makes no sense to kill people. A corpse can not see the error of its ways.

And when you begin to think about which one you think our justice system is about, ask yourself: Which one would Jesus choose? If I had grown up in the life of some of these offenders, might I have ended up in this same position? What societal benefit are we really gaining from killing offenders?

John,

I don't think you read my post very carefully. I said I am OPPOSED to capital punishment, though I am more sympathetic than I used to be to pro-capital punishment arguments. In other words, whereas I used to simply dismiss pro-capital punishment arguments as unenlightened, I have come to understand that there is something fundamentally human about the desire for retribution when a loved one is murdered.

As for your specific questions, historically the accepted purposes of the criminal justice system have been threefold: 1) retribution, or punishment; 2) rehabilitation; and 3) incapacitation. Capital punishment obviously meets 2 of these 3 goals. It exacts retribution, and it permanently incapacitates the offender. It just as obviously serves no rehabilitative purpose.

To me, though, the decisive factor is the inherent unfairness of the system. It disproportionately impacts minority defendants and, to an even greater degree, poor defendants. Defendants who can afford to retain their own counsel rarely end up on death row; those who rely on public defenders or court appointed counsel often do. Moreover, mistakes are made. Eyewitness identifications have been demonstrated to be horribly unreliable, especially if they are cross-racial, yet they remain very persuasive to juries. Prosecutors often rely on jailhouse informants who have plenty of incentive to lie. I believe these problems are probably unfixable, and it is therefore impossible to ever have a fair system of capital punishment. These reasons alone are sufficient to merit opposition to capital punishment. The broader moral argument is just too complex to go into here.

How about just do as God says
(New International Version) Exodus 23:
7 Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.
King James Version Public Domain
(KJ Exodus 23:7Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

King James Version Public Domain Numbers 35
30Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die
Numbers 35 (New International Version)
30 “ ‘Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses. But no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.
New International Version (NIV)Deuteronomy 19 15 One witness is not enough to convict a man accused of any crime or offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
New International Version (NIV)
2 Corinthians 13
Final Warnings
1This will be my third visit to you. “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses
How many have been put to death using god’s standard by the Christian Republicans?
The thing to remember is once a person is dead you can learn nothing from them as a example lets look at the Muir building in Ok. The only time we had a real live terrorist and they killed him did that save a life. NO Did it bring anyone back to life, NO. What can we learn from him only that dead bodies rot. But If we would have kept him alive and let psychologist study him maybe we would have learned how terrorist act and think. Revenge is so important

John G –

There is a third possible purpose of the criminal justice system, in addition to punishment and reform – and that is deterrence.

There is no doubt that capital punishment stops the executed criminal from committing more crimes. But is also may serve, because of its public nature, as a deterrent to other potential criminals. There are studies on this, but I don’t have time right now to dig them up.

But as a deterrent, capital punishment may actually serve to save more lives than it takes. And the lives saved are innocent lives, while the lives lost are guilty ones.

Having said that, let me add that I too am very troubled that modern forensic technologies has shown us that all too often innocent people have been convicted of crimes. And some have actually been put to death. This is tragic in the extreme.

As a death penalty supporter, I would be very open to limiting the death penalty to murder cases where there is either a non-coerced confession or undeniable and clear DNA or chemical evidence, or multiple high quality, reliable eye-witnesses. There must be **NO** significant doubt that the person is guilty.

I think Timothy McVeigh deserved the death penalty, and I’m glad it was carried out.

I'll say up front that my opinion of the matter is that Joseph Duncan (if he is as guilty as it looks) should be executed as quickly as possible and in the most humane manner possible.

I do believe there are some crimes that are so heinous that the blood of their victims cries from the ground for retribution. This is definitely one.

I also know for a fact that every single process for capital punishment in place at this time is incredibly flawed and does not provide enough protection for those charged with a crime. All it takes in one family member to stand trial for any crime they didn't commit to understand that.

The purpose of the criminal justice system is not retribution nor is it rehabilitation. It is to make society a safer place. If a person can be rehabilitated - and many can - then society should not scrimp on providing those services. If not, then we should not be shy about keeping a real and present danger off of our streets.

Fact: Child molestors - and particularly violent ones - are incredibly resistent to any form of treatment. After working with people who dedicated their lives to treating sexual offenders, the general consensus is that the only safe molestor is a dead molestor. If you are going to argue that they could ever begin to repay society for the damage they do, then you are on incredibly shaky ground.

Fact: Capital punishment has absolutely NO effect as a deterrent. If it did, no one would ever get murdered in Texas. This has been shown in statistical study after study after study. If your argument is based on deterence, then you are on very shaky ground.

As far as incapacitating someone, I think death is a pretty good way to do it. It seems much more inhumae to me to lock someone away in prison while they are in their late 20s or early 30s (the average age range of a capital case) and do everything possible to keep them alive for as long as possible. 50 or 60 years in prison, to me, is the equivalent of torture. This is especially true when you consider the social conditions they will face.

It is incredibly offensive to me that a person in prison gets free health care, but my brother who works as a laborer can't afford the insurance his company offers him.

So, I have to say that I favor the death penalty as an option - but it should be rare and it should be done as humanely as possible. There is simply no benefit to torturing a person.

XT

phinky:

Thanks for the clarification on the timeline. Believe it or not, my brain does get full once in a while and jumble things slightly.

KSM:

I, for one, would love nothing better than to have been proven wrong about Iraq.

I saw first hand what Iraqi troops did in Kuwait City. You'll never see me shed a tear for Saddam Hussein.

But that isn't really the question.

There is a substantial case to make for taking military action against Saddam based on his record for hostility against his own people. That, however, was the very last possible reason our President and his Administration gave.

Moreover, if that is the reason for us going into Iraq, then how can we sit on our hands and watch the Sudan? What about the abuses of our erstwhile ally Uzbekistan?

To suggest a pre-emptive war is justified due to human rights abuses is to show us completely hipocritical on the issue. In effect, it leaves us in a position where we have to realize that the reason we went into Iraq is because we wanted to.

I'm really okay with saying that - if we went in with well-prepared troops, hardened supply-lines, and a public and allies that were solidly behind the reasoning and agreed that it was the thing to do.

None of that - not one part of it - is true.

We are left contemplating a military action that is sucking up massive resources, stretching our military way too thin, and tying it down so that it cannot react to real emergencies that could develop quickly. The effect it has had on our recruiting and retention rates has left us with a weaker military than when we started.

Having said that, I will now anger the peace advocates by saying that it is quite impossible for us to cut and run. To do so would be to leave an area begging for the beginning of World War III.

I'll refer you to my personal blog where I discuss a third possibility:
http://xpatriatedtexan.blogspot.com/2005/08/unpopular-with-right-unpopular-with.html

Partnering with Egypt and Pakistan has some real problems, but it has one advantage nothing else does - it puts Arabs and Muslims in place to secure the peace with other Arabs and Muslims. They can do one thing we will never be able to do - get all sides to the bargaining table.

All we lack is the will to look outside of ourselves for the answer.

XT

I have to say that I oppose the death penalty. Killing the perpetrator in no way corrects or rights his/her wrongs. Two wrongs simply do not -- and never will -- make a right. I don't support state supported executions.

Study after study has shown that the death penalty is NOT a deterrent.

Study after study has also shown that molestors have an incredibly high recividism rate. They are very difficult to rehab. But, if "the only safe molestor is a dead molestor," then instead of execution, look 'em up and throw away the key.

Whether it is humane to lock someone up for life vs giving the death penalty ranges the gambit. This is based on personal preference. I suspect that most humans will choose life; this desire to live is an innate trait of all animals. And a strong one too.

In regards to rehab, there is that one story about that AA gangster who made such a stunning turnaround that he was being considered for the Nobel Peace Prize for his advocation of peace.

Besides, I think Jesus would be against the death penalty . . . after all, it got Him in the end.

Giving life instead of the death penalty is the ultimate 'turning the other cheek.' It is the pinnacle of "God, forgive him for he knows not what he does." It is the final forgiveness.

I think this is what Jesus would have us do.

While I agree that the death penalty is applied disproportionately to minorities and to the poor, I still have a very hard time disapproving of it in cases like Timothy McVeigh and even Scott Peterson. And I wish I could say that I'm sorry Jeffrey Dahmer was killed by a fellow prison inmate or that the monstrous pedophile priest, John Geoghan, was strangled in his cell. There are people so evil, whose crimes are despicable, that we as a society cannot tolerate them. I wish I had a more forgiving, Christ-like nature.

Cathie --

You do not need to feel sorry for Jeffrey Dahmer or John Geoghan for what happened to them. In fact, you should not feel sorry for their deaths . . . as long as you did not rejoice in their demise. Once there is rejoicing, there rises the ugly specter of vengeance.

For me, " 'Vengeance is mine,' saith the Lord." I don't like revenge -- it tends to eat at my soul and I harbor negative feelings, which I don't like.

Just know that God knows all and sees all. Everyone will meet with the justice of God in this life or the next. But, God will temper that justice with mercy.

Just know that these fallen souls have fallen far from God and that their path back to God, if they so choose, is LONG and HARD. Where they are going, they need our pity more than anything else.

Let God deal with the vengeance and take the burden off of you.

I am not just saying these things. I have an adorable little three-year old and I have thought about this issue long and hard, should anything bad happen to her. I would hope I would do as I say. I, however, would need years of therapy.

Death penalty is state supported vengeance. Just let it go. And know that God will take care of all things. That would be my path to peace.